To feel everyone is anti trans?

[Kitjo]

I'm well aware of current US views led by Trump - but are these views generally held/supported in the UK? Of course I understand opinions on NHS gender reassignment funding, as well as controversies over trans women in sport. Needless to say I'm fully aware of concerns over women's safety issues. Are there any sympathisers or supporters out there? What about trans masculine folk who are surely no threat to women's safety or sport? None of these people would choose such a hard life, socially, financially, physically, mentally, emotionally... am I alone in thinking a bit of kindness and compassion towards the trans community might be appreciated for the massive personal struggles they have to face? I am open minded to hearing and understanding your views.

If the trans rights movement had played out differently, we wouldn't be where we are now.

Tolerance and compassion for a tiny minority - great.

Teaching in schools that anyone might be 'born in the wrong body' if they aren't on board with gender stereotypes; presenting male criminals and athletes as 'women'; expecting everyone to declare their pronouns and gender identity; fierce penalties for anyone who says 'hang on a minute, woman is a sex, not an identity' - all this is why there is a backlash.

I haven’t got any issue with individuals choosing to live how they feel is right for them so long as it doesn’t affect me by stupid policies. I also dislike the way it was presented in schools - pretty much every child started identifying as something random because of it.
I dislike how it affects women ie we aren’t just called women we are cis women rather than just the person changing themselves identifying under a different name.
The majority should not have to change for a minority but I believe anyone should be accepted for their differences provided it doesn’t harm anyone else.

I tend to avoid FWR because I don't agree with many of the sentiments expressed there. Of course people have a right to their viewpoints but I don't have to agree with them.

Exactly. If men feel unsafe in men's spaces because of how they present, this should not be women's problem to solve.

I am regularly horrified by the anti-trans rhetoric on Mumsnet. I truly hope it's not representative.

No they are not. They are males with penis and testicles and male DNA and male chromosomes. Nothing about them is 'woman'.

I honestly don’t care, it doesn’t even really cross my mind. The issue in today’s society if you’re ambivalent, i.e. not actively supporting something it often gets painted as anti whatever that something is. Thats not the case. I don’t care about golf, it doesn’t mean I’m anti golf.

Exactly. Far Right is the new Gaslighting, spouted at every opportunity whether it is relevant or not and frequently out of context.

What is your definition of anti trans rhetoric?

Happy for you to put some quotes down so we can see what you are referring to…

That's the problem really isn't it..it's the fetishisation of women and role playing a caricature of a woman that is a bit insulting to actual real biological women. The classic objectification of women by men as just a pair of boobs,skirt, heels, long hair and nails?! Being a woman is in the way you think, it's learning to live with and adapt to the consequences of your biology, your smaller stature, your monthly cycle and hormone fluctuations. I just don't see the level of empathy many women have in men. This is why many men can just up and leave their family and completely compartmentalize and freeze them out their life, but you don't see many women do that, many women would rather die first. This is why men are more violent too and a murderer is more likely to be male...testosterone.

Of course there are exceptions to any rule. Men are biologically programmed on a basic level to spread seed and move on, let's be honest. Women and biologically programmed to nurture. We can all be more than our basic biology but it still has a massive influence on our respective behaviors.

As a man, you can put a wig on, take oestrogens, chop your sex organ off but ultimately every single cell in your body still has a y chromosome, you cannot change your DNA or even your skeleton which is inherently male.. Whatever you put on the outside which doesn't truly reflect the inside is fake. Why would anyone want to be a fake woman or a fake man for that matter?! And why shouldn't women feel threatened by a man parading as a woman when many men are predators. I genuinely think if you cannot accept your birth biology, the issue is actually a psychological one and really just needs therapy, not changing who you are to try to pretend to be someone else, which is actually surely more damaging to your mental health long term. Especially if you are young and vulnerable and haven't found yourself or experienced the world yet. Pretending to be a woman is just really a distraction from the real issue and a cry for help or attention.

define anti trans rhetoric please

Horrified that women have the audacity to say ‘no’?

Haven't yet rtft

What annoys me about it is the change in how gender non conforming people are viewed. 12 years ago when my eldest was a baby the discourse was that toys and clothes have no gender, your son can play with dolls and it doesn't mean they're not a boy, they're a boy who's going to grow up to be a loving dad etc etc

Now it seems like as soon as you're a little non conforming you are non binary or trans or a gender, and have to find a box to put yourself in. As a gender non conforming woman it's annoying that we seem to have lost the word tomboy, I know some don't like the term, but I kinda do, when we were called tomboys no one just assumed you wanted to be male, you just weren't a girly girl

I think "anti trans" is a bit of a misleading term tbh.

If I met a "trans" person (in inverted commas simply because I don't believe in gender ideology) I would treat them with the same respect I show anyone else, in the sense that I wouldn't be rude or abusive to them, as long as they treated me the same.

I think everyone is entitled to feel however they want to feel about themselves, and present in any way they wish (men in dresses, don't care).

What I object to is being expected to take part in their fantasy and being told how I should view them/refer to them. I also object to young people being medically interfered with, men trying to get access to women's spaces, women's language being eroded, etc etc. It's the ideology I have issues with.

I think most "terfs" feel pretty similarly. We had a man with a "female identity" join a group I was in. I spoke to him every week, had some good chats about all sorts - but I just used his name to his face and didn't refer to him as "she" to anyone else. If we had been in the position where he had used the women's toilets I'm not sure what would have ensued.

You're right, OP. Everyone with any common sense and respect for women is anti-trans, as in they know it's a social contagion being spread first by SM and now, sadly, schools. They don't think people who identify as trans should expect anyone else to accommodate them by using pronouns or letting them use the wrong single-sex facilities. Basically, they'd like to return to how things were in 2010, when men didn't routinely set out to destroy women's boundaries and take photos of their dicks in women's toilets.

Depends what you mean by anti-trans really. Increasingly the accusation is used to shut down sensible debate about sex based rights and protections, or querying whether neurodivergent teenagers are particularly susceptible to gender ideology, and are later regretting their decision to transition.

Many are not anti trans at all. I fight tooth and nail against discrimination of any kind and am I suppose quite 'woke', as is my family and friendship circle. If I was aware that a trans person was being bullied and persecuted I would stand up for them. I defend anyone's right to dress, behave and feel precisely as they wish to without criticism, unless it hurts others to do so.

But I won't tolerate the creeping erosion of sex based rights and I preserve the right to challenge terminology that threatens my lived experience of being a woman (I am not a CIS woman, or a person who menstruates etc). From my experience in real life, many agree with this stance but are afraid to express it beyond trusted circles because they're fearful of being called a bigot, or worse.

Mumsnet is a site for women with children. The trans community (in its very broadest definition) seeks to enter and appropriate women's spaces, to erase women's rights and to capture vulnerable children doing them irreparable harm. Unsurprisingly, it doesn't receive support on Mumsnet.

I meant the Trump administration, not American people in general.

This right here sums it up.

Fuck being kind.
👍

Yes I agree. That thread here a few days ago, about the awful attack on a transgender teen in Harrow, where posters were tying themselves in knots to make sure the trans victim got a good old whack of blame - so depressing.

@NotTerfNorCis

Exactly! I am very happy for my child to learn compassion. I hope they will. I do want them to learn that they don't have to be subject to rigid sex stereotypes. I don't want them to be taught it is normal, perhaps even more interesting and special, to hate your body or the sex you are born into and that they have a smorgasbord of genders to identify into.

Fully on board with trying to ensure that people who have undergone gender reassignment are treated with dignity and protected from harassment. Don't believe you can change sex. Don't really believe that personality and stereotype based labels like gender fluid (aren't we all?) are meaningful and require particular special treatment beyond "live and let live"

They don’t see to shop in marks and Spencer’s

Oh but they do. M&S welcome men into the changing rooms to try on bras and knickers next to teenager girls get measured for their first bras….

This perfectly encapsulates my view too