To think London is in a major decline?

[Phannyphart]

I’ve lived in London (zone 2) for 10+ years. It’s always been pretty ‘real’ here but since the end of covid really everywhere just seems so, so awful.
Dog shit everywhere, spit everywhere, council owned parks closed and locked, people littering more than ever before. Get on a bus and it’s just people screaming in to a FaceTime on top volume, people blasting TikTok. Kids being stabbed in broad daylight, people shooting up heroin near the nearby primary school. The area has a lot going for it but it really seems wherever I go there is an awful decline.
Has anybody feeling the same actually moved out? Do you regret it?

I agree. If you travel regularly to Europe, the decline is very obvious in a number of cities. This is not a UK specific issue.

Especially with the new revamped M&S foodhall.....

@blueshoes

Thanks for mentioning the City of London. That is what I initially thought this thread was about when I read the title.
It is not only the rubbish in the streets but where is the UK generally headed if the taxes generated by the City are no longer there for the milking.

Yep. The City has generated the majority of London's wealth for decades and is now in precipitous decline. People love to hate on it and say its full of rich wankers and we don't need it but it supports a huge amount of associated business and wealth creation. If the City dribbles away to irrelevance (which is underway and with no sign it will be reversed) a lot of other people who work in adjacent industries will be affected, their wealth will decline and it will have much wider ramifications.

This is rarely discussed outside the financial press but there's a potentially very significant impact here for people way beyond the Square Mile.

Also I recently went to Naples for my birthday, I suggest you go there for a day and you'll think London is the cleanest city going.

@UpTheLoobyLooTree I live in a part of London considered ‘naice’ and the local high street is increasingly a bit of a disaster.

My theory is that because everyone is working full time x 2 to afford a house, no one has any time at all to visit the high street and do any shopping. Efficiency is more important and that means getting things delivered.

Terrible but true!

it makes our really nice shopping centre in Kingston feel sort of run down.

I still find Kingston the best place to shop tbh.

@ojdolnipl well crime & the lack of resources is a wider topic but I was just making the point that just because somewhere looks nicer & costs more it doesn’t mean the crime has gone. And for what of a better word it’s easy pickings for someone to rob someone walking around locally with an expensive mobile etc.

I moved out recently having lived there all my life. I was in Ally Pally which was nice, but London as a whole I felt was declining. The majority of the high streets were all full of chicken shops, mobile phone shops, discount stores etc. there were so many new developments with no accounting for the infrastructure putting strain on schools, GPs, transport etc. It was getting so noisy and crowded. I now live in Frome in Somerset and have no regrets whatsoever. When I've gone back to see family I think 'Nice to visit but wouldn't want to live there!'

Some parts of London I don't feel like I'm in the UK.

Yep agree! He’s vile ….apparently doesn’t know what child grooming is! Sooner he is out the better

We are not central (z6, SW direction) but are in regularly.

I have noticed a large increase in marijuana smoking - can smell it very regularly. Doesn't hugely bother me, apart from the illegal aspect - the smell isn't as awful as smoking.

Crime in my area, touch wood, is not so bad. That said, I am literally looking at getting a door bell camera, just in case.

But Oh My GOD! The dog shit. It is EVERYWHERE. What is wrong with people??? I am sick to death of it. And also of dogs, who are a) increasing in number and b) increasing in volume and scariness - we have a pitbull (I expect they get away with this illegal breed by calling it a large staffy) AND a doberman living opposite us, and I genuinely fear for my children walking to school.
For the dog reason alone, I feel London and the UK is on the decline.
I don't know when people started getting so selfish. Dog shit has always been a problem, but it is getting worse, year on year.

My brother moved to Zurich. I have stayed with him several times. I kid you not and they clean the streets with proper machines like 3 times a week in the autumn. They then came to shake some plums off the tree lined street, they call it an “Allee”. Some vermin or fox attacked his bin bag and he called the council and within 30 minutes they were there to clean it up. It was like being caught in the Truman Show. There was no a single pot hole on the streets. I did see a few druggies though, at least that.
To top it all off, people have to pay extortionate amounts for bin bags for normal waste and yet there appears to be no fly tipping. The bin bags are their waste tax. If they did that here, there would be piles everywhere. They also have dog shit bags everywhere for people to use. It is like an alternative waste universe.

literal joke candidates.

it’s disrespectful at this point

Me too. But I have noticed a big decline in people taking responsibility for their own dog shit / bad parking / type of thing, since approximately the mid 2010s and I do think Brexit encouraged a big sense of "fuck it, I can do what I like" among a lot of people.

There are loads of other factors encouraging that as well that happened around the same time though. Huge council cuts under the coalition and Cameron, and 60% of your council tax going to private care home providers hasn't helped. We lost a week to ice last week and no one had gritted any of the B-roads. Used to see gritters all the time when I was younger.

Whilst it is lovely, it’s certainly not immune from the dogshit issue, particularly the roads around the heath…

Literally, judging by the number of comments about dogs and dog poo here!

I think we’re still recovering from Tory austerity and a third less money going to local government, plus Brexit, plus Covid in London. Going outside London a few times to visit, it looks equally knackered. I don’t know what the solution is.

Used to go to London regularly (from the NW) for weekends etc, not been in a long long time does not have any attraction any more , no good news comes out of it. Sounds like a lot of other city centres which are basket cases.

pretty much the same everywhere, sometimes I don't open my curtains because the endless fly tipping opposite my house depresses me so much. It is a 5 minute walk from my home to the bus stop and I can often count about 7 fly tips. I feel a mixture of despair and rage, people even dump their crap at the gates of the local primary school, I have seen the teachers having to shift a foul looking matress before they could open the gates. Our city centre look is run down and dirty and as for the areas out of town, well there are a few better off places but even they have trash dumped out on the streets.

I think we do have to have an honest conversation about how we see the future of London and other areas when we have groups that will not integrate and do not want to do so.

This goes both ways though. I see more segregation in general.

Hi OP. Over the last 25 years, we have lived in Bethnal Green, Pimlico, Putney, Barnes, Chelsea.

I wouldn't say everywhere in London has gone downhill. There had been huge investment in some areas - eg.

The whole area around Battersea Power Station - unrecognisable compared to 20 years ago.

The whole area around London Bridge Station - when did that happen?

Spitalfields / Hoxton area - transformed

Also, I went back to where we used to live in Bethnal Green / London Fields and couldn't believe my eyes. Totally buzzing. The flat we sold for £80k when there was no more than a pub and a laundrette on the street, is now selling for £900k - it's super cool cafes and matcha lattes all the way there now!

Chelsea and Belgravia and that whole zone retain a sense of 'upmarket.' Still lots of character, generally uplifting vibe. Lots if backstreets and I still always stumble across something I never knew was there.

High St Ken is not great, but the residential streets leading off it are probably posher than ever. South Ken is the same as it always was.

Hammersmith (especially near the tube) has had a lot of investment inc. initiatives to reduce pollution. Cycle lanes, pavements widened, shiny new office blocks and apartments and a bit more 'cafe culture.'

Parsons Green is still pleasant.

Notting Hill / Portobello is a bit rough round the edges, but my teens love it.

The West End - Oxford St I couldn't say as not really been shopping there in years, but I wouldn't describe Covent Garden as a depressed area? Soho much better than 20 years ago. Same with Chinatown, Carnaby St - the whole zone really. We went to see the lights in Bond Street recently and the whole West End / Mayfair area was buzzing with people. Great atmosphere and felt very safe.

On the other hand -

Putney. The High St has def gone downhill. Above street level, some of the buildings look near collapse. A lot of fast food type places have replaced the shops that used to be there. Looks noticeably 'grimy' these days - which is odd because the river area is still lovely as it always was and the residential streets all around are more expensive than ever.

Wimbledon Village is still posh in the horsey kind of sense, but actual Wimbledon town centre is very bland.

Richmond is still ok (The Green and Riverside are beautiful), but lots of shops seem to have gone out of business - inc. Wholefoods (the horror!) and the department store that used to be there.

So that's my summary! In general, I think the way we use high streets has changed - ie. people shop on high streets less, but go for other reasons (socialising, eating out, etc). So 'destination' high streets, or those serving areas where people have higher disposable income, have survived because the shops turn into Insta-worthy restaurants, boutique-end shops, etc. But where people can't afford that type of lifestyle, the shops just stay boarded up.

Two other points (while I'm at it) -

Yes homelessness (and homeless gangs) are more noticeable in the last 10 years. But this is also true in many other European capital cities. Particularly Paris.

When you travel outside of London, it can be a shock to see how depressing other parts of the country can be. I think most people in London have no idea really what it's like in your average U.K town.

We lived in Raynes park/border to Wimbledon a decade ago. It was totally gorgeous

I went recently to Chelsea - totally gorgeous!!!!

I grew up in South London and went back to that area recently and could have cried with how completely shitty it is now - derelict buildings, boarded up shops and an atmosphere of barely suppressed violence. If you wanted to buy a house there the price tag would be as likely to put you in intensive care as the knife crime though, so go figure.

Yeah it’s weird how even the crap parts are expensive now.

If you think London is bad, don't come to Glasgow. .

I think London varies hugely within areas. On my street, it feels horrible, sketchy, drug deals happening every day in broad daylight - middle class road but loads of homelessness and addiction issues.

If you walk three streets away, it feels wonderful, calm and lovely. I'm planning to move out of London because I can't afford to move onto the nice street, but I think it varies a lot even with a small distance.

Lived in London, mostly in the south east, zone 2, for 30 years. In many ways, it's hugely improved - as others have said, areas like Peckham, East Dulwich, Herne Hill, Brixton, Camberwell, Brockley, New Cross have all improved, and the parks, shops, restaurants, etc are generally much better. Transport links are vastly improved. The zone 1 areas around London Bridge, Battersea, etc are fantastic. East London - I mean Shoreditch, Whitechapel, Dalston, Hackney are improved out of sight. For those people with a bit of disposable income, London is a fantastic playground, and a good place to live, in the main.

BUT: we basically have no local government in this country now, because over £4 out of every £5 is going on adult social care (not just a London issue) and it still isn't nearly enough - only the people with the least money and the highest needs get funding. So if your streets are full of shit, and your bins aren't emptied regularly, and the council is taking away street bins (because if you have a bin, someone has to empty it), and there are more homeless people, it's because there's no fucking money.

And criminals are better organised and funded than the police and the courts now, so if someone nicks your car off your front drive, do not be surprised if the police could not be less interested and only give you a crime number so you can sort it out yourself with your insurance company.

Basically, there's some stuff you just can't buy, it has to be funded collectively, and a safe, clean, functional public realm is one of those. Earn more, pay more taxes, people, and social care insurance, and pool your risks, and things might stand a chance of improving.