To think London is in a major decline?

[Phannyphart]

I’ve lived in London (zone 2) for 10+ years. It’s always been pretty ‘real’ here but since the end of covid really everywhere just seems so, so awful.
Dog shit everywhere, spit everywhere, council owned parks closed and locked, people littering more than ever before. Get on a bus and it’s just people screaming in to a FaceTime on top volume, people blasting TikTok. Kids being stabbed in broad daylight, people shooting up heroin near the nearby primary school. The area has a lot going for it but it really seems wherever I go there is an awful decline.
Has anybody feeling the same actually moved out? Do you regret it?

😂🙈 yes YABU. In fact you’re being ridiculous.

The effects of austerity and Brexit have finally reached London then?

Yes, its country wide, but it’s been like this for the past 10-15 years up here.

Clearly it is very area dependant. There have always been rough areas but the last 10 years where I live has definitely been in uptick in antisocial behaviour. That is simply fact. I live on a quiet residential road but we have has recent issues with drug dealing and drunks. One tried to bash a neighbour’s door in the other day. I frequently see brazen shoplifting- never saw it before. Security guards now everywhere- local supermarket has put up glass screens. Boys being mugged. I used to feel safe walking home in the dark but I’d never let my children now. There have been ram raids on shops. This is a quiet part of London not central. It is still on balance a nice place to live but we have definitely had conversations recently about whether or not we want to stay long term and I never thought I’d say that.

Same here

I've lived in London over 25 years and in different areas of it.
In that time it's always had really nice areas right next to rough, more edgy areas so it very much depends where you live & work as to your experience of the city.

When we had kids, the majority of the people we met at antenatal classes said they were going to move out to raise their kids because the schools were so bad etc. And they did just that.
We didn't and our kids went to the local state schools which were properly comprehensive & drew in all sorts of kids. But they were excellent schools & both of mine did well there & have gone on to good universities. London schools are generally very good & outperform other areas.

And the opportunities there are for young kids and young people in London are vast - anything you are interested in or want to do you know in London you will find a place to do it
I grew up in a rural area and, while it was very safe it was boring, it lacked real opportunities and we were all desperate to escape it as soon as we were old enough!

My kids have never felt unsafe in London but they are careful at night etc as you have to be in any city.

I have two young adult children who live in zone 2. One has lived there about 4 years and the other moved fairly recently after having lived in a very pleasant and safe (or at least relatively safe, but not as safe as it used to be) small, leafy and friendly city elsewehere in the UK, where they went to uni. They also grew up in a similarly safe and pleasant environment.

Discussion ensued about commuting to work on public transport (buses and tubes) in central London and just being out and about in the streets.

Eldest said to youngest 'It's fine so long as you don't look at anyone. You will see and hear things kicking off all around you all the time. It doesn't even have to be night-time. It's constant and round the clock. Just try to look away. Don't look anyone mad or bad or shouty in the eye and certainly don't ever try to intervene in anything. It's just not worth it. Keep your head down and mind your own business, keep your wits about you, learn to sense when you need to get out of an area or situation very quickly and you'll be fine.'

That's probably very sound and pragmatic advice, but fucking depressing all the same. When I lived in and worked in central London as a young 20-something in the late 80s I commuted to work and went out a lot at night. There were certain notorious areas we all knew to avoid, especially at night, and muggings, drug dealing and gang violence were rife in those areas, but very much confined to those areas, as I recall. I rarely encountered anything scary or intimidating in my day to day travels around the city.

Now, it feels like the sheer levels of aggression and chaos and that general feeling of heightened tension are pretty much omnipresent across the city a whole. The population of greater London back then was also pretty much half what it is now, the ethnic mix much less diverse (lots of Indians and Caribbean people but very few Africans, Arabs and people from the poorer European countries for example) so we now have lots of new sectarian gang warfare issues dragged onto our streets from other places in the world.

The housing crisis was nowhere near as acute in the 80s and 90s either. There were FAR FAR fewer homeless people on the street and far fewer evidently mentally ill and psychotic people wandering around. We also have lots of beggars now, either individuals or aggressive begging and pickpocketing gangs, which pretty much disappeared post Victorian era. That was sadly reintroduced to our streets when the UK was opened up to freedom of movement from the EU in the 90s. Now it's in virtually every large town and city.

Lots of previously rough places have become gentrified it's true, Herne Hill being a great example, but the urban decay, general lack of civility and dog-eat-dog mentality seems to be more widespread in general.

It’s all to do with gentrification- lots of central London is now absolutely pristine and a world away from the dirt and crime I remember. Places like Kings Cross are unrecognizable now.

The change is the suburbs of London which really have declined. Those are now more dangerous, more crime and anti social conduct. And it’s visible in a way that used not to be.

Yes that's absolutely true. The unsavoury elements of urban living seem to have been pushed further out into suburbs that were previously safe and pleasant. But given that city has doubled in population that was bound to happen.

You see this is what I mean. I live in central London and don’t recognise this description at all. I go out frequently and do not feel a simmering sense of agression or tension or anything else. These views are being stated as gospel when they just aren’t.

Interesting as I would say that is a bit exaggerated perhaps but reasonably true. I travel by tube a lot and I often come across strange people particularly drugged up and kicking off. I’m certainly much more wary than I was 10/15 years ago

It’s fascinating how people’s experiences of the same place can be so different. I have never encountered anyone violent or aggressive on public transport. There is a man with clear mental health issues who lives near us and wanders round talking to himself, but he’s harmless (and I don’t believe people with visible mental health issues are unique to London).

I'm from North London but I moved out when I was 23 and have never looked back. Been away for 23 years now so have lived here as much as I lived there. I loathe going back to London - I have to for work now and again, but its changed drastically and I don't recognise the place anymore. My father still lives in North London but he says the same and if he wasn't in his late 70's I think he would move too.

Agreed.

I live in Tower Hamlets and a lot of it is much nicer than where I lived in Barnet. Places like Stratford and Elephant and Castle are practically futuristic now

Exactly this. I have seen a couple of people on night buses who were clearly psychotic - talking to themselves and acting a bit twitchy. I wouldnt sit next to them but I wasn't scared of them either. Just didn't want to get myself into a weird situation.
No crime or aggression though

I think part of this is that many of those suburbs have also gentrified. The problem drinkers who 25 years ago would have been hanging out most of the day in the sort of cheap, shit pubs which pretty much every area had at least a handful of can no longer afford to pay £7 a pint in the fancy pubs which have taken their place, so they’re now street and park drinkers and more visible. Due to unaffordable housing, there are greater numbers of young men particularly who live in unstable accommodation with little space and nothing to do, so they’re no longer at home and out of sight but congregating on the local highstreet. Most of us now carry devices worth several hundred pounds in our pockets or bags (or in easy grabbing range, as we stare at them absent minders as we walk) - of course we attract pickpockets and phone snatchers to our cosy suburbs.

I don't disagree but I think that London where Londoners go has moved on. I never go to Oxford Street or Leicester Square (unless I am going to the theatre) but if you head off to Southbank, Bloomsbury, Barbican or Kings cross, it's very lively and relaxed on a summer's evening. But also there are loads of other areas too outside of central london, I know a lot of young folk that hardly venture into zone 1 as their local area is buzzy (is that even a word anymore😂).

London is constantly reinventing itself and I am sure in 5 years or so Oxford street and Leicester Square will be worth going to again.

Yes I think there is something in that too. London seems much wealthier to me than 30 years ago. It’s also a much tougher place to live if you don’t have much money. It used to be possible to live quite well even if you didn’t have a good income- that has disappeared and drives crime.

These threads always talk about London in decline but I went for a couple of days to Stoke on Trent and I was absolutely shocked. A bit like how some people described London. Maybe it was because I have never been before but honestly it made me realise why people outside of the major cities voted Brexit. I am sure there are nice bits I don't know about. The University looked very modern and seemed to be thriving but I am unsure its success spread to the local area.

The anecdotal evidence of one young man is not the full picture, just his pov

There has never been one London, it has always been separate villages/parts and some gentrify rapidly and go up when they are trendy with young creatives, then the professional families move in etc. Some are full of rich old people and overseas rich who are barely there. Goes up and down. Like everywhere, how nice a place is depends on whether there is a sense of community and people supporting each other and local initiatives.
I live fairly central and have always had friends who move out to different parts and we stay in touch etc and loads of places in Greater London are still gentrifying. Well off people who care about their community and less well off people who support their community with time and effort always make a place a nice place to live. It is when you are surrounded by people who do not contribute usefully in any shape or form and who are rude and entitled and on the take, that places become horrible and toxic. As London still attracts a steady stream of young enthusiastic people from all over the world, it will probably be immune to a major decline. Yes, some people do not like Khan but there were too many cars and too much pollution directly harming young kids and the elderly so he had to try and do something. Public transport and cycling tends to work quite well. There are plenty of people who cycle in to work all the way from the suburbs, not just to save money on public transport, but to get some exercise too.

It’s all the big UK cities. Birmingham is seeing similar. The homelessness issue especially as exploded in Brum.

I almost never, ever see things kicking off on public transport in London.

I definitely see more beggars on transport but mainly British ones (male) with a lot of female ones being foreign.

And London has always been a UK outlier in always having a huge homelessness issue.

Point of view shared by many I know.

These threads always talk about London in decline but I went for a couple of days to Stoke on Trent and I was absolutely shocked.

Stoke can be a bit meh, I agree.

You want nice bits in the Midlands: Leicestershire, Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire have gorgeous villages (and some towns) with fetes, gymkhanas, scarecrow competitions, festivals etc etc. Keep away from city centres, go further out and if you drive through on a sunny day...there's nowhere better. Northumbria has some stunning areas.

Re London - I visited last year and it looked wealthy, lots of building/regentrification and not as dossy as I remembered it from years ago. You need some money to live there - do Cockneys still live there, how do they afford it?

And to not pollute