To think London is in a major decline?

[Phannyphart]

I’ve lived in London (zone 2) for 10+ years. It’s always been pretty ‘real’ here but since the end of covid really everywhere just seems so, so awful.
Dog shit everywhere, spit everywhere, council owned parks closed and locked, people littering more than ever before. Get on a bus and it’s just people screaming in to a FaceTime on top volume, people blasting TikTok. Kids being stabbed in broad daylight, people shooting up heroin near the nearby primary school. The area has a lot going for it but it really seems wherever I go there is an awful decline.
Has anybody feeling the same actually moved out? Do you regret it?

This is a very interesting theory but I don’t believe these explain the issues OP has mentioned - for example, why are so many young school kids stabbing each other? Surely they’re not “fed up and can’t be bothered anymore”, nor stewing on the cost of living crisis…

If you think London is bad, then you need to get out more. Maybe look at some of the Northern towns and cities that are basically nothing but drugs, money laundering, litter, low level crimes, traffic offences, anti social behaviour, etc. London is wonderful compared with some of the hell holes out in the regions.

I think the decline is everywhere too. We've got massive problems with homelessness, antisocial behaviour and littering in my town, too. I can't be arsed to get into a long political debate but 14 years of the Tories does that to a country.

I live on the edge of Surbiton and haven’t noticed anything like that at all! Sounds horrendous! What general area are you in?

not those kids but their parents are, and can’t be bothered parenting anymore

London is in major decline and it really is the result of Mayor Khan, Ken Livingstone was very good for London (bringing in the Olympics, Crossrail etc), so it's not a party political thing.

Being a commuter into London, Covid hit very heavily, and Khan did everything he could to tell people not to visit London (he even looked at tripling my fares to get into London). Then when Covid ended he thought "London is Open" would magically bring everyone back.

There needs to be a zero-tolerance on low-level stuff, like the beggers and general cannabis use in the streets. Ban those rikshaws and the American candy/HP stores. This is the same as the broken windows policy in NY.

I find the decline is even worse outside London in smaller towns and cities. There are still lots of positives i like about London. It's a very accepting and vibrant cosmopolitan city. We love the English countryside for holidays, visiting friends up North etc, but have to live here because our families and work industries are here.

I don't think Zone 1-3 are very liveable but great for work and entertainment. It's very transient, young and affluent (so the inner city contrast vs the have-nots is very stark). Zone 4-6 generally safe and stable. I like where we are. Public transport is terrible though where i am zone 5 - so much room for improvement.

I think public transport and road infrastructure is key to solving the housing and cost of living crisises. london transport is better than other places but i feel UK is overly conservative, under ambitious and backwards in urban and town planning.

That said 100% i want to move out of London once kids are independent.

I think London is definitely better than in the 80s but I do think that some areas are beginning to feel a bit more unsafe or are at least no longer getting as secure as before. For example, yes Brixton is now more 'white' but I also think that despite its new M&S, deprivation is certainly still there and things arent getting better. We live in Herne Hill and whilst it's certainly 'safer' than before, low level crime is constant, kids are constantly mugged for their phones etc. Shops have closed, Lordship lane is full of empty units. Despite gentrification - there is still a huge difference between SW London and even the poshest bits of SELondon - and I dont think the gap is closing anymore.

Gentrification has its down sides, it makes things very sterile & often homogenous. Plus just because you now have more white people, a Gail’s & your house costs twice as much it doesn’t mean all the crime has disappeared. I’m constantly shocked by how many people aren’t aware of their surroundings.

No youth centres, schools cut back to the bare bones so poor educational opportunities, drugs easily available everywhere, social media glamorising the gangster lifestyle. That's why.

I live in Hampshire and when I go to London, it’s via Richmond and then train or the district line. London has been dirty and a bit run down for at least 20 years. I don’t feel unsafe though. I think it’s because it’s Richmond (or Kensington or Covent Garden’s).

This is the same in Hampshire. Compare Southampton with Winchester. The market towns are mostly all lovely. There are nice and rough spots in the county.

Crime in London has changed. I remember seeing the transition from old English gangsters to a newer, more vicious culture from Eastern European criminal gangs who occupied sex trafficking and the drugs business.

The English gangsters moved into property development and sold their knocking shops for millions: and so a new criminal class emerged, one not related to a native community. Foreign criminality does make a big difference to offending.

What I notice is the acceptance rate of things that wouldn’t have been so tolerated previously. We have begging gangs with individuals in about 8 locations in our shopping centre and also people setting up rough sleeping beds which are left there all day inside bus stop shelters, outside Mac Donald’s etc. it makes our really nice shopping centre in Kingston feel sort of run down.

But the difference now is the volume of people, and scruffiness has moved from the centre of town to the suburbs. London poverty is now in the outer zones. Much more Parisian.

That would explain why when we visit it seems nice.

TBH since I had my youngest and coalition government came in with their sweeping cuts it felt every where been in decline. The only exceptions to that feeling in recent years where when we went to Liverpool and Leicester but again we're seeing city centers.

When we moved here about a decade ago - it was on an up which was better than where we came from - but few years later it's much worse. It just the decline varies in intensity and amount - gives an overall glum impression of UK.

yep.

masses of hmos with 7 people in a 2 bed tend to ruin the area let alone the lack of roots means there no engagement or buy in with the community.

It hasn't change much since I live there in the late 80s early 90s. I remember the dealers having the drugs attached to collars of their pit bull terriers.

I lived in London for years, still visit but atleast London is still cosmopolitan, lots of different people from everywhere . I now live in a big city... it's in societal decay inhabited by people that won't assimilate and literally is a 3rd world and not too dramatic to say civilisation I it's truest sense is declining. Just One example , for instance, people on buses blaring their phones, no consideration for others.

@trivialMorning - yes, it's an illusion. Paris has its bourgeois centre and now too London.

All the riots shall be outside the ring roads as a consequence

@Coldanddamp I am certainly aware that gentrification isnt all positive. What I mean is that Brixton/East Dulwich/Peckham to me feel less happy places that even five years ago. Also whilst crime doesnt disappear, in this part of London the expansion of Lime bikes and post-Covid masks have meant that criminality is now a lot more mobile than before whist further increases that sense of insecurity across and between these different spaces. And I think a lot more people are seeking to move out almost post this form of gentrification to areas that do feel safer. Are we seeing a form of degeneration in parts of SE London, perhaps, at the same time as yes, other parts like Elephant and Castle not only now have a Foxtons but are feeling almost sleepy.

Where I live it's kind of both. Lots of built-up attractions and shiny flats to appeal to commuters and tourists, but at the same time it's feral in the actual community. Screaming arguments and broken glass outside our window many nights, used needles in front of the playground, a friend was glassed in the face by strangers recently walking home. Shoplifters shamelessly running out of shops dropping items. Any ride on the bus or trip to the shop or post office you'll hear strangers kicking off at each other. But I'm not sure if it's any worse than before, there's just more of a contrast.

Have you seen the tents by the river?

There are tents all over London but now they are on the river banks.

The whole country is doing to the dogs. It started long before covid.

Think unfortunately it’s a reflection of the state of the entire country. But I think London in particular is ever evolving, the parts that used to be shite are now cool and the cycle just goes round. My FIL grew up in Brixton in the 70s and it wasn’t the sort of place where you went out at night. He’s lived in zone 6 for nearly 40 years now which is very much the burbs and what was once quite a middle class area has gone downhill whereas Brixton has become fairly gentrified.

I live in east Anglia and we have a lot of families moving here from London because of the cost of housing there. I think this exodus probably isn’t helping, equally it’s not helping us either because it’s driving up house prices!

IMO cities need creative people, artists, musicians, students etc to have energy and thrive (or at least - in the way we imagine).
All of this is being driven out of London by the high cost of living.

Thats true, it’s losing youth. I think the falling school rolls that we are now seeing will have a pretty big impact. Schools without pupils don’t get the funding they need (funding model is based on headcount), schools decline & then what happens to those areas? Particularly when VAT will price some out of PE when you factor in high house prices.

I've lived in London all my life, 76 years. It's changed beyond all recognition. In many ways for the better, in others not so much.

Are the posters a response to increased harassment or because society no longer accepts these behaviours?