To think the 2 tier GCSE system is wrong

[countingdaysuntilretirement]

My dd is in year 11 and will be doing her GCSEs in June. There has been some discussion on whether she would be sitting the higher levels or not - she's borderline on most. I have only just realised that you can't get lower than a grade 4 if you take the higher paper - if you do badly you don't get a grade 1,2 or 3 but are simply ungraded. But if she takes the foundation level she can't access the higher grades.

This means children are having to take a gamble with their papers. I would have thought the higher level would just add an additional paper or layer - not that you risked losing a GCSE altogether if you had a bad day.

Can anyone rationalise this for me?

@LazyArsedMagician sadly no tiers in English, all students have to sit the same, challenging exam.

Tiering in MFL tho.

Genuinely interested in why?

I should know that as we had parents evening last night! Although honestly it didn't occur to me to ask, my two are already not doing the Lit. part as it's too much for them. Just hoping they actually pass the Lang. section.

I didn't know about MFL though and one of mine is doing French - unfortunately we didn't get to see his teacher. He got a 1 though in mocks :(

Grade bands possibly different around 1997
I think higher paper was A*-D and lower paper was B to G

I did my GCSEs in 1989 and it was same then. I felt I was borderline child even though I was in top set Maths and after discussion with my teacher went to the foundation paper. Even now I don't know why my teacher didn't encourage/push me to do higher. Higher was grade A-C and realistically if I had not gained the C and got a D or lower I would need to have done retakes anyway if I'd wanted to do A levels.
Most futher education needs grade 4 or above in maths so same thing applies really,
Also I don't think they need to decide until they are entered into the exam nearer the time?

We looked at a foundation paper at the start of year 10 as the teacher wanted us to compare papers. The foundation tier was like year 6 sats. We were asking the teacher stupid questions as we were over complicating simple concepts like calculating the area of a rectangle.

Maths used to have 3 levels, Higher, Intermediate and Foundation but it was not possible to get a Pass grade on the Foundation paper, hence it changed to Higher and Foundation. The Pass grades are available on both levels but obviously the top grades are only available on the Higher paper.

It makes a difference because lots of university courses, especially in the sciences/accounting, require a minimum of a 6 in maths.

In my DC’s school only top set did the higher paper.

I mentioned this and I agree it's something to think about – yes some university courses require a grade 6 in maths. So I guess it's something to check out if a student might be able to achieve a 6.

Otherwise tho I honestly cannot see how it matters. I mean if a student is 4/5 borderline. Obviously if a student is on track for a 7 then they should take H. If a student is looking at Oxford or LSE, where a grade 7 might be important, I would hope they would be sitting H anyway.

But (for example), DS2, bright but a bit lazy if not interested, took Spanish GCSE and got a 6. They would probably not have let him take F tbh as I am sure he could have got a 7 with some work. But icl, if he had a 7, the 6 he has, or a 5 from sitting F, it would make absolutely no difference to him. He had no intention of taking MFL for A level; the grade did not impact his uni choice at all and I highly doubt that it will ever come up in any way in future job interviews.

What % do you need to get a 5 in the foundation maths gcse?

My daughter is in year 13 now but sat the foundation paper. She improved significantly in the months before the exam and asked to sit the higher paper. School said no. So she sat the foundation paper and got a 5 (she actually nearly got 100%). When she started year 12 she asked to resist her exam (along with the ones that hadn't passed), but did the higher paper instead. She ended up getting a 7 and is now doing A-Level maths! I do think they should have let her sit the higher paper originally as she was getting great marks in all her mocks.

I would like to know this too please.

The grade boundaries will vary between different exam boards. The information will be on their websites (probably the pass marks rather than % though)

But in practical terms there surely isn’t much difference between a U and a 1/2? It’s not a pass either way. If there’s a possibility she might get higher than a 5, wouldn’t the higher paper be worth a chance?

Interesting what past posters say about November exams being resits only. I invigilate at a local secondary school and they run a November session for maths that’s taken by about a third of the year 11s - definitely not resits. The able ones do higher tier then go on to do further maths in the summer sitting (or presumably retake the regular paper if it didn’t go well) and the less able do foundation and then have the option to take the higher in the summer. It’s a private school, so maybe that's the difference.

Re grade boundaries, looking at Edexcel maths from last year, to get a 5 in Foundation required 73% and a 5 in Higher 30%.

But in practical terms there surely isn’t much difference between a U and a 1/2? It’s not a pass either way.

A U is the only fail grade, a grade 1, 2 and 3 are GCSE level 1 passes.

They are equivalent to old CSE passes and old CSE passes weren't considered 'fails'.

Last year for edexcel you needed just over 73%
For AQA it was just over 77.5%

As you see it is quite a high percentage – but the thing is the questions are a lot more accessible. The ability to get a grade 5 is supposed to be in parity across H and F tiers (which must be a challenge). But how much more appealing to go into an exam and be able to complete most of it, as compared to maybe a third of the H paper.

According to the grade boundaries document you can get anything down to a 3 in the higher level. It's only 1 and 2 that they don't award.

https://qualifications.pearson.com/content/dam/pdf/Support/Grade-boundaries/GCSE/2311-gcse-9-1-notional-component-grade-boundaries.pdf

It might be good if you look at past papers for both. The maths foundation and higher tier papers are totally different. The foundation is all about learning the maths you need for life. Higher level is all academic mathematics that you would never use in normal life in a million years.

If a 5 is likely then I would definitely be aiming to do the foundation paper, just because the learning would be so valuable for giving life skills.

I don’t think @countingdaysuntilretirement has clarified what she means by saying her DD is borderline btw. And “most” is a bit disingenuous – we are talking a max of five GCSEs if she does an MFL and triple science. It could be as few as three.

If she is genuinely flipping between a 5 and a 6 then I think she should look at the papers to see what they are like (MFL for sure is very very different between H and F) and see what she thinks, along with asking her teachers. It might be worth taking H paper, though I think you need to look at why and what end it will serve (and I take note of the “unis that need a 6 in maths” concern for sure).

If by “borderline” the OP means just about getting a 4, maybe a 5 on her best day, then F is deffo the badger.

Thank you
Dd needs a 5 to access preferred post 16 options and finds the F paper much easier
Got a 4+ on the Higher mock last month
I think we will ask for her to sit the F paper

Thank you all - too many to name but so many helpful comments.

We will go with the teachers advice. I started this thread more because I'm struggling to understand the logic of the system than for DDs individual circumstances.
DD is very bright and has a high level of reading comprehension. She has one subject she is passionate about and wants to make her career and is good at maths but she struggles to get her thoughts onto paper sometimes and can blank in exams. So she is capable of doing really well but can lose a lot of marks very easily.
She doesn't want to go to university but I don't want all her doors to be closed at this age.
Scary times - and sympathy to others who are in the same place.

Surely you just take the higher one and if you get ungraded then you take the easier paper??

I don't imagine she'll be keen to re-sit unless it's essential for the next thing.
If she gets 1s and 2s they will count on her GCSE numbers for CVs even if it doesn't do much for uni entry.

I think the opposite and that there should be a foundation paper for English too.
There's enough of an overlap (being able to get a 4/ 5 on both papers) that teachers can usually pick the appropriate one for each student.
The only issue is the bright students who fail to do any work for Y10 or their mocks. They have targets of 6, get Us when they take the Higher mock and it's very difficult to justify entering them for higher tier. Yet, entering them for foundation automatically means they cannot achieve their target grade.
Exam certificates do not state the tier taken.

That's good that you are going to follow the teacher’s advice @countingdaysuntilretirement

I’m still not sure why this is scary, unless you mean that the prospect of your DC sitting GCSEs is scary – as in it’s such a lot of work. I agree with you there.

But there’s no need to be scared about her taking foundation maths. It won’t close any doors for her – by the sound of it anyway (the main door it closes is maths A level and I infer that's not on her list anyway).

Do you after reading the thread at least understand the system of H/F papers a bit better? I heartily wish there was a F paper for English language at least.

Best of luck to your DD.