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Tony Blair says we need a national conversation about MH as its costing too much

1000 replies

B0xes · 14/01/2025 11:55

Tony Blair said recently on Jimmy's Jobs of the Future Podcast (clip available on youtube) that we need to have a national conversation about mental health. Why are we spending so much on it. Why are people self diagnosing. He believes people are being encouraged to view everyday challenges we all face as mental health issues.

Is he being unreasonable? In one sense, I'm inclined to agree to an extent, in the other, I believe he led the charge for so many of the social changes that have made us less resilient and many of these issues are due to individualism which led to atomisation and loneliness and being encouraged to see the market as the entity that fulfills our needs rather than strong families and robust social networks.

YABU - Blair can do one.

YANBU - He might have a point

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
Munnygirl · 15/01/2025 07:13

Avenuesandboulevards · 14/01/2025 23:23

Sorry I don't understand your reply. Are you making fun of one of my previous replies? That's the only thing I think this might be?

Of course I’m not! There is nothing funny about it.

Gfre654 · 15/01/2025 07:36

mellongoose · 15/01/2025 05:30

Under Blair, the rules were changed so that more people could claim disability benefits. The numbers went from less than 300k to on their way to 3m under Gordon Brown.

They have ballooned ever since because the nasty Tories were vilified for trying to row back on those changes.

Or maybe mental health struggles soared and MH services were decimated under their leadership.

I don’t remember them paying much heed to being vilified over many many things during their long leadership.

Gfre654 · 15/01/2025 07:36

MerryMaker · 15/01/2025 01:53

@BooneyBeautiful you don't tend to get PIP if you are working and have a mental health difficulty like depression or anxiety. The official view is that if you manage to work, its not that bad.
Not everyone who gets PIP really needs it.

Evidence?

Gfre654 · 15/01/2025 07:38

ItWasTheBestOfTimes · 15/01/2025 01:34

I think people who claim ESA (not PIP as that’s as in work benefit too) whether for physical or mental issues probably fall into 2 categories.

The first category of people would be those with extreme MH issues, like extreme OCD, BPD or psychosis, and if all welfare support was withdrawn tomorrow, and they were faced with a choice of dying or working, it would inevitably be the former as they lack the capacity or capability to work. My brother has treatment resistant schizophrenia and would probably be dead or in an asylum if he lived 100 years ago.

The second category would be those with milder disease who, even though life would be much more difficult for them, and they would have reduced quality of life, they would ultimately choose to work if all welfare support was withdrawn and they faced that same choice of supporting themselves through work or dying.

I don’t doubt that life is pretty miserable if your only income is from benefits, which only just cover necessities, but I think there are probably lots of claimants now with milder issues who at the moment feel they can handle the challenges of living on a tiny budget with only most necessities covered better than the challenges that would come with work. But if those goalposts shifted, the safety net was removed and even the basics were no longer covered, I imagine they would return to work.

Ideally we would have the funds in place to support both categories of people. But we probably don’t due to the sheer numbers.

The second group would struggle to get work, struggle to stay in it and would move to the first. You left out a whole host of conditions.

BOREDOMBOREDOM · 15/01/2025 08:06

TheSnootiestFox · 14/01/2025 22:29

We'll have to agree to differ then. I can't fathom being so weak and relying on others to bail me out but as you say, everyone is different. My ADHD is genetic and I didn't even realise I had it (save for untidiness 😂) until I was 50. All these people claiming benefits for it and saying they can't work are seriously trying it on, there will be something they can do, it's just easier not to. As we've seen, they go on holiday and go to the pub instead.

This has to be a joke? Respectfully your ADHD is not that bad if you went 50 years and only just found out you have it (I'm sure you'll moan that's insensitive but after calling other people weak I hope youre not that hypocritical)

You really think a paranoid schizophrenic who's having hallucinations is going to be able to hold down a job? Or an autist that can't even make eye contact and comes across as "weird" is even going to be able to get past interview stage.

Lol just because you have a mild condition and hold Down a job apparently everyone else is faking.

Would you like to work alone in an office with a six foot schizophrenic man who's convinced you're a demon? You have no idea how severe some people's mental health is.

ViolinsPlayGentlyOn · 15/01/2025 08:20

Or an autist that can't even make eye contact and comes across as "weird" is even going to be able to get past interview stage.

Um… yes? You’ve just described me… (although I hate the term “autist”)

BOREDOMBOREDOM · 15/01/2025 08:25

ViolinsPlayGentlyOn · 15/01/2025 08:20

Or an autist that can't even make eye contact and comes across as "weird" is even going to be able to get past interview stage.

Um… yes? You’ve just described me… (although I hate the term “autist”)

So you got past the interview stage?
Well done but someone close to me with autism goes on interviews practically every day for year now and has got nothing. Most employers want someone who's a "people person and sociable" etc which he is not.
Then he has to put up with people throwing accusations of laziness, fakeness and being a waste of money. Kinda soul destroying. It's great you managed to get a job but autism is a spectrum.

BOREDOMBOREDOM · 15/01/2025 08:26

BOREDOMBOREDOM · 15/01/2025 08:25

So you got past the interview stage?
Well done but someone close to me with autism goes on interviews practically every day for year now and has got nothing. Most employers want someone who's a "people person and sociable" etc which he is not.
Then he has to put up with people throwing accusations of laziness, fakeness and being a waste of money. Kinda soul destroying. It's great you managed to get a job but autism is a spectrum.

I meant to say years not year

Alexandra2001 · 15/01/2025 08:28

mellongoose · 15/01/2025 05:30

Under Blair, the rules were changed so that more people could claim disability benefits. The numbers went from less than 300k to on their way to 3m under Gordon Brown.

They have ballooned ever since because the nasty Tories were vilified for trying to row back on those changes.

No they didn't, you ve just made that up....

These are the official figures:

The number of people on disability benefits has been steadily rising – from 2% of the working-age population in the early 1990s (591,000) to 6% in 2020–21 (2.2 million)

The numbers in the UK claiming at least one DWP benefit, excluding pensions, is 10.3 million people and most of that is because of very low wage rises imposed by the Tories.

ViolinsPlayGentlyOn · 15/01/2025 08:29

BOREDOMBOREDOM · 15/01/2025 08:25

So you got past the interview stage?
Well done but someone close to me with autism goes on interviews practically every day for year now and has got nothing. Most employers want someone who's a "people person and sociable" etc which he is not.
Then he has to put up with people throwing accusations of laziness, fakeness and being a waste of money. Kinda soul destroying. It's great you managed to get a job but autism is a spectrum.

That has not been my experience, but then I wouldn’t apply for a job that requires a lot of unstructured interpersonal interaction.

Is the person who is close to you looking for companies with guaranteed interview schemes? Or there are things like autism-specific internships.

ViolinsPlayGentlyOn · 15/01/2025 08:31

@BOREDOMBOREDOM And also some charities / organisations offering mentoring to get into work. Happy to share details of one I’m aware of if that would be helpful

MistressoftheDarkSide · 15/01/2025 08:33

I'm still waiting for someone to explain where people not working due to mental health issues are going to find all these jobs that will take them with open arms.

A good number might have had a job that they were quite legally managed out of when their employer really couldn't sustain keeping their position open after a period of time.

Some people may well have managed to get a job without disclosing their condition, and then been terminated for that.

Anecdotally, back in the 70s, my Dad, ex navy, qualified tradesman, suffered a period of mental illness that required inpatient treatment. He then joined the ranks of long term unemployed because people wouldn't hire him despite his previously good track record, simply because of this. At one interview he remembers being actively told that if he hadn't disclosed his condition and been taken on he would have then been sacked for not doing so. Another employer cited insurance restrictions based on age. He was willing, employers were not.

I appreciate laws have changed, but some who do find employment might well be hired due to tokenism. If it's obvious that reasonable adjustments are made, it can't be fun if or when colleagues start getting resentful of time off or perceived leniency. Being the subject of eye-rolling round the water cooler is hardly going to build their confidence, and while one might say people are tolerant, I think this thread rather demonstrates otherwise to a large degree.

So I forsee a huge Catch 22 situation if huge numbers of people are forced to seek employment when they are not up to it and when employers are already extremely selective in who they take on. This will lead to sanctions, tribunals, appeals, and given that serious mental health conditions often inspire lack of engagement with both support and bureaucracy, how will this be managed without further resources being required to beat people into compliance.

Or will we callously go back to abandoning or institutionalising those perceived to be "a drain on society" ? It's glibly suggested for all sections perceived to be so. Any benefit claimant, the working poor claiming top ups are not exempt despite the fact that poor wages, out of line with actual costs of living have lead to the government subsidising employers who still go on to make eye watering profits and pay handsome bonuses to executives, should be doing more, more, more, to make money. The Assisted Dying bill, aimed at easing the suffering of the terminally ill due to their own demands sounds reasonable to a degree, but goal posts have been changed in other countries to include "milder" situations.

The point I'm making is that when a person is simply considered valuable according to their financial contribution, yet making that contribution becomes systemically harder, an incredibly cold mindset creeps in. There is no magic money tree comes the cry - unless you're a banker or have chums in government of course.

The benefits of work may well be more than monetary, but if the monetary bit doesn't meet the cost of living and people lack security or prospects, that is a contributory factor to declining mental health in itself.

The welfare state as a whole came into being after the world wars, and it wasn't pure altruism. Partly it was because the conscripted were found to be in poor health so detrimental to any future war effort, and partly it was because states looked at the Russian Revolution and feared that the people may turn on the ruling elite if something wasn't done. Sure, some of those who ushered it in had genuine motivation to improve the lot of the population but it was the pragmatic resolution to possible impending civil unrest, which would have been far more costly in so many ways.

So now we're heading to an employment landscape dominated by technology which will once again widen the divide between those who provide service and manual labour, and a smaller number increasing the virtual aspects of modern life.

The market is supposed to sort it out over time but in the meantime the adjustment process is creating all sorts of chaos.

And people wonder why mental health is at an all time crisis point.

Gfre654 · 15/01/2025 08:49

ViolinsPlayGentlyOn · 15/01/2025 08:29

That has not been my experience, but then I wouldn’t apply for a job that requires a lot of unstructured interpersonal interaction.

Is the person who is close to you looking for companies with guaranteed interview schemes? Or there are things like autism-specific internships.

Such as ?

What happens to those with comorbities?

ViolinsPlayGentlyOn · 15/01/2025 08:52

I have a lot of comorbidities.

I work in data.

Here’s one potential resource for people who may be interested. Note I am not saying people should work who can’t. I’m just saying it is possible for some. And I hope this is helpful for some.

https://www.ambitiousaboutautism.org.uk/what-we-do/employment/supported-internships

Being able to work doesn’t mean you’re functional in all areas of your life btw. There seems to be an underlying tone on this thread about if you can work then you’re not really affected.

lakesandplains · 15/01/2025 08:58

Agree @MistressoftheDarkSide it needs more than just the stick to get people back to work - what of all those parents working less than they'd like due to caring responsibilities because of inflexible management? Another huge pool that isn't maximising their tax paying...look at marginal tax traps, barriers such as inflexible employer owned pensions and stamp duty for moving for better paid work.

The UK could do with a royal commission or inquiry etc for all the reasons that are holding people back from wages/getting higher wages.

The 'national conversation' needs to be bigger than a focus on people with disabilities to look at all the reasons why a family isn't working or earning as much as they could.

BOREDOMBOREDOM · 15/01/2025 09:07

ViolinsPlayGentlyOn · 15/01/2025 08:29

That has not been my experience, but then I wouldn’t apply for a job that requires a lot of unstructured interpersonal interaction.

Is the person who is close to you looking for companies with guaranteed interview schemes? Or there are things like autism-specific internships.

He's gone for all sorts practically every job that comes up in the area he applies for. I know employers are supposed to not discriminate but when they have fifty people all applying for a job it's easy to pick a chatty sociable neuro typical one without giving a reason.
I haven't heard of autism specific internships I admit but I assume this is more common in big cities? He doesn't live in a city and I know someone could say he could move to one he wouldn't be able to because with no job he has no money for rent. Luckily he has his parents to live with (before someone starts saying he could never be homeless because the council will house and cost the taxpayer more money the waiting list is 15 years + here)

Sushu · 15/01/2025 09:10

MerryMaker · 15/01/2025 01:05

The people in asylums in the past were those with illnesses like bipolar, severe depression and psychosis. These are now the people either still in modern day asylums (if condition is medication resistant), or heavily medicated with little support.

No, this is not true.

I have done a lot of work with people who were in the asylums and still need support re-integrating back into the community several decades later. People were admitted for much more minor conditions and remained there until the hospitals were closed. I work in a geographical location where there happened to be many of the hospitals so I come across those people all the time in my line of work.

Your second point is also incorrect. There are not modern day asylums. Some people have repeated short stay inpatient mental health admissions. Overall, most people are in the community. There is very little support for people who need 24 hour mental health support. That said, there are some supported living providers who do an amazing job but they are so far from a modern day asylum. The number of people living in long term psychiatric inpatient units is, thankfully, very low.

ViolinsPlayGentlyOn · 15/01/2025 09:13

Yes, it’s definitely easier in a city - more types of job - and I know what you mean about going for the chatty type of person.

I’ve generally found either tiny companies (sometimes prepared to be flexible, may have less “typical” people running them) or large companies (with actual HR processes) better.

I hope he finds something that works for him.

Pussycat22 · 15/01/2025 09:15

MistressoftheDarkSide · 15/01/2025 08:33

I'm still waiting for someone to explain where people not working due to mental health issues are going to find all these jobs that will take them with open arms.

A good number might have had a job that they were quite legally managed out of when their employer really couldn't sustain keeping their position open after a period of time.

Some people may well have managed to get a job without disclosing their condition, and then been terminated for that.

Anecdotally, back in the 70s, my Dad, ex navy, qualified tradesman, suffered a period of mental illness that required inpatient treatment. He then joined the ranks of long term unemployed because people wouldn't hire him despite his previously good track record, simply because of this. At one interview he remembers being actively told that if he hadn't disclosed his condition and been taken on he would have then been sacked for not doing so. Another employer cited insurance restrictions based on age. He was willing, employers were not.

I appreciate laws have changed, but some who do find employment might well be hired due to tokenism. If it's obvious that reasonable adjustments are made, it can't be fun if or when colleagues start getting resentful of time off or perceived leniency. Being the subject of eye-rolling round the water cooler is hardly going to build their confidence, and while one might say people are tolerant, I think this thread rather demonstrates otherwise to a large degree.

So I forsee a huge Catch 22 situation if huge numbers of people are forced to seek employment when they are not up to it and when employers are already extremely selective in who they take on. This will lead to sanctions, tribunals, appeals, and given that serious mental health conditions often inspire lack of engagement with both support and bureaucracy, how will this be managed without further resources being required to beat people into compliance.

Or will we callously go back to abandoning or institutionalising those perceived to be "a drain on society" ? It's glibly suggested for all sections perceived to be so. Any benefit claimant, the working poor claiming top ups are not exempt despite the fact that poor wages, out of line with actual costs of living have lead to the government subsidising employers who still go on to make eye watering profits and pay handsome bonuses to executives, should be doing more, more, more, to make money. The Assisted Dying bill, aimed at easing the suffering of the terminally ill due to their own demands sounds reasonable to a degree, but goal posts have been changed in other countries to include "milder" situations.

The point I'm making is that when a person is simply considered valuable according to their financial contribution, yet making that contribution becomes systemically harder, an incredibly cold mindset creeps in. There is no magic money tree comes the cry - unless you're a banker or have chums in government of course.

The benefits of work may well be more than monetary, but if the monetary bit doesn't meet the cost of living and people lack security or prospects, that is a contributory factor to declining mental health in itself.

The welfare state as a whole came into being after the world wars, and it wasn't pure altruism. Partly it was because the conscripted were found to be in poor health so detrimental to any future war effort, and partly it was because states looked at the Russian Revolution and feared that the people may turn on the ruling elite if something wasn't done. Sure, some of those who ushered it in had genuine motivation to improve the lot of the population but it was the pragmatic resolution to possible impending civil unrest, which would have been far more costly in so many ways.

So now we're heading to an employment landscape dominated by technology which will once again widen the divide between those who provide service and manual labour, and a smaller number increasing the virtual aspects of modern life.

The market is supposed to sort it out over time but in the meantime the adjustment process is creating all sorts of chaos.

And people wonder why mental health is at an all time crisis point.

Well put, thank you.

Rosebeds · 15/01/2025 09:17

Not a Blair fan but agree with him on this point. Everyone and their mother has a MH diagnosis these days, so much “anxiety” when what it is in fact is a normal reaction to objectively unnerving situations — it’s an emotion quite literally everyone feels at some point. I don’t understand the “want” so many seem to have of a MH condition. It’s weird, self-indulgent and offensive to those who have genuine illnesses.

Like other posters, I have had some awful low points in my life and especially in my teenagers years where it was difficult to cope. Could my mum have taken me down to the GP and likely got me an anxiety diagnosis? Probably. Thankfully she didn’t, and I cracked on with it and came out the other side absolutely fine.

TheSnootiestFox · 15/01/2025 09:22

BOREDOMBOREDOM · 15/01/2025 08:06

This has to be a joke? Respectfully your ADHD is not that bad if you went 50 years and only just found out you have it (I'm sure you'll moan that's insensitive but after calling other people weak I hope youre not that hypocritical)

You really think a paranoid schizophrenic who's having hallucinations is going to be able to hold down a job? Or an autist that can't even make eye contact and comes across as "weird" is even going to be able to get past interview stage.

Lol just because you have a mild condition and hold Down a job apparently everyone else is faking.

Would you like to work alone in an office with a six foot schizophrenic man who's convinced you're a demon? You have no idea how severe some people's mental health is.

No joke, no insensitivity involved, and again that's rather my point. The gentleman you refer to is exactly who the nation should be spending its funds on and not the delicate flowers who are too anxious to go to work but can manage the pub.

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 15/01/2025 09:30

TheSnootiestFox · 15/01/2025 09:22

No joke, no insensitivity involved, and again that's rather my point. The gentleman you refer to is exactly who the nation should be spending its funds on and not the delicate flowers who are too anxious to go to work but can manage the pub.

Have a day off

TheSnootiestFox · 15/01/2025 09:33

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 15/01/2025 09:30

Have a day off

I would but it appears everyone else is due to their mental health.....

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 15/01/2025 09:35

TheSnootiestFox · 15/01/2025 09:33

I would but it appears everyone else is due to their mental health.....

Well I would like to thank you personally for holding up the economy 🤝 you're doing a bang up job. Keep going.

TheSnootiestFox · 15/01/2025 09:37

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 15/01/2025 09:35

Well I would like to thank you personally for holding up the economy 🤝 you're doing a bang up job. Keep going.

Unfortunately I have no choice. But thank you.

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