Have you got a "no because" friend?

[Soniastrumpet1984]

I've got a nice friend , fairly new . I really got on with her but at times, she can be tricky. She'll start a conversation, leading a certain way and when I join in, she will shut it down. Its nothing really important, here's an example (not a real one)
"I really need to get some new trousers in town
Me : oh nice. I saw some nice ones in New Look
"I can't go to New Look as the stuff is always rubbish. I might look in M&S
Me: they'll have some nice stuff
"Yeah but I hate M&S. There's never enough choice unless you go online"
Me : you could try online if you can't find anything in the shop
"I don't like online though"
I like her a lot but a conversation is like banging your head on the wall sometimes

Exactly this.

It's not just that she's being a negative Nancy like others are saying. It sounds like she's actually saying something sounds okay until you agree, then she changes her view.

I'd end up falling out with her but I'd imagine our chats would go more like this:

"I really need to get some new trousers in town
Me : oh nice. I saw some nice ones in New Look
"I can't go to New Look as the stuff is always rubbish. I might look in M&S
Me: they'll have some nice stuff
"Yeah but I hate M&S. There's never enough choice unless you go online"
Me : so why did you just say you'd look in M&S?
Me: you could try online if you can't find anything in the shop
"I don't like online though"
Me: you're the one who just said you'd look online. Is there a reason you're turning everything I say into a problem?

OP, the kind of conversation you describe is sometimes known as a 'yes, but' scenario, where nothing you suggest is ever right. It leaves the person who says 'yes, but' looking negative and you feeling put down and drained.

If you look at what you've written, she raises an issue (trousers) and you offer a solution (New Look). She does a 'yes but M&S' and you offer a supportive response and she negates it ('Yes, but I hate M&S').

It's a game and it's annoying. It's something people do when they want attention and a grumble, but don't want a solution or you to advise them. Some people just want a moan. They offer a problem that needs to be solved (I need new trousers, help!) and then refuse all the helpful suggestions/ advice. So don't offer any. Next time she says 'I need some new trousers' you say 'Uh-huh?' Let her grumble about how much she hates everything. Then you can change the subject.

Sadly, people who do this can often turn out to be life's moaners and don't make interesting, positive friends. Give her a while, see if things improve. If not, look for new friends. Good luck.

She sounds rather hard work.
Have you tried avoiding being drawn into expressing any opinion at all, and just asking questions? 'Which shops are you going to look in for the trousers? Where did you get the ones you are wearing? Do you ever buy online?' It would be interesting to see how she responds when there is nothing to disagree with.

She sounds annoying. I couldn't put up with that.

"Yeah, but, to be fair - the sky isn't blue...

This was the example I was actually going to give - it was directed solely at me (as we socialised in a group) - and was intended (I think) to silence and belittle me. It worked as I withdrew from the group .... but she sh was raging at that as she needed someone in her sights to berate. I had happened to a previous member of the group who locked horns with her (which was tedious for the rest of us) who also left the group. I know someone who works in her field and she has a reputation for rubbing everyone (including clients) up the wrong way.

Ohhhh! I’ve got one like this and I could never pinpoint what it was she was doing/why she drives me demented. I thought she was an elevenerife, which she is, but she’s a “yes but” as well. Hard, hard work.

There is someone I fairly frequently meet around here when dog-walking. I've learned just to say hi and move swiftly on because any remark ('Your Alfie (dog) is looking very cute today' 'What a glorious day' 'Lovely sunset') immediately gets contradicted or denied and then we're kind of stuck there, with the emphasis on me to apologise for saying something stupid. I've been told by other dog-walkers that this woman is widely recognised as being autistic and doesn't 'do' chat, so that may have been the situation with your colleague.

It was exactly the same with me... (she's not called Amie is she?!). In my case, I know for a fact that it was due to envy as she was pretty open about it to others. I was always getting promoted over her and we'd also attended a hobby together as children which I would a lot better at than her (I'd win, she wouldn't). She was unfortunately also part of my friendship circle and like you're example always had to berate me in front of an audience.

Once I moved on, she did the same thing to another girl. I knew it was coming, she could never hide her real feelings. Very prickly.

I'm Audhd and can usually tell.

She seems very neurotypical. In the worst possible way. It was an intentional mind game from a Mean Girl.

What are her good points as she sounds zero craic 😂🙈

Always feel these people could start an argument in am empty room.

In the op example I would say ' well I'm sure you'll find a way' but I would have talked about styles of trousers etc.

Maybe she feels you're advising her? And is still entrenched in teenage agnst and can't see a chat when they are in one?

The best way to deal with no becauses is to be a let me knower.

"I can't go to New Look as the stuff is always rubbish. I might look in M&S"
"Let me know if you have any luck, I'm looking for some too"

"Do you want to go to a cafe"
"yeah sure what time /place"
"I need to do a food shop"
"No worries, let me know when you decide"

I have a friend of a friend like this and really struggle too. You try to make small talk like, "oh it's getting dark so early" and immediately get back a heavily sarcastic, "obviously, it's winter." The only conversations that work (?) are very one sided niche specialist interest topics like 1970s kung fu movies, at which I have to listen to long monologues because I know nothing about the subject, which I'm also belittled for every few minutes.

And so the autism bashing begins.

Predictable.

If you're referring to me, I'm the one getting bashed in every conversation. Because I'm not rude back.

I was also thinking of this! To my mind once you are aware of this 'game' it's easier to not get drawn into 'playing' it (speech marks because I am referring to the book)

Autism is a social communication disorder.

What you have described from your examples is someone Autistic, communicating Autistically.

Small talk can be really really difficult for ND
people, distressing even. Flat tone and flat emotional effect can sound sarcastic, but some Autistic people simply cannot mask and it can come across as rude. When they get started on a special interest subject they often can't stop and don't realise you think they are being rude. If anything they are trying to connect. Badly. Because they have a social and communication disorder and not everyone is capable of masking and understanding the way neurotypicals communicate.

Other people are just dicks and unpleasant, and deliberately so.

There's a chance though, from your examples, that you and this friend of a friend are just never going to be able to communicate in a way that is mutually beneficial or kind to one another. No matter how well meaning. She can't do small talk and you, understandably, don't like being monologued at. There's a very good chance she doesn't realise you feel "bashed" at all.

That's head bursting stuff , personally I CBA .

I can’t stand these argumentative types. So draining. It makes me not want to converse with them at all if all they want to do is argue. Conversation is an art. You have to put effort into making it varied and interesting, but pleasant for all parties.

I had a colleague who would ask for help then shut down every avenue you tried to explore before becoming frustrated and going to ask (repeat the process with) someone else.

It was very annoying.

This entire thread is making me feel like I might be these friends because these examples seem normal to me.

Everyone: isn't it absolutely freezing/sweltering today?

Me: yes definitely, but I quite like the cold/heat .

So I'm seen as being contrary, rather than just having an honest conversation. And why is any of this even slightly controversial 🥺?

I think it comes from being criticised or not believed, or always being told what to do as a child by your parents. I know I can sometimes be 'yeah, but...' about things. For those reasons.

That's not actually the same type of convo that is being experienced by the OP and referenced by others though.....

You are simply expressing a different opinion to other people's, of course that's fine! The OP's odd friend is, repeatedly, expressing an opinion different to the one she herself just voiced. That's the issue.

@Doingtheboxerbeat Bear in mind that I’m ND…

I don’t see anything wrong with what you’ve written, and feel it’s different from some of the examples on the thread.

So the example above about the Autistic woman…who said “Obviously, it’s Winter.” I can see why that comes across as rude but I also know how her mind is working…”well yes, it is cold…because it’s Winter…and I don’t really see the point that’s being made here…or why it’s important enough to talk about…and I’m not sure what to say as it’s either very important to her or obviously an attempt at small talk…and I never know what to say to small talk…and I can’t quite read if she’s happy or sad about the weather because she is smiling but her voice sounded like it’s a bad thing so maybe I should just make a statement that is true…because the truth can’t be offensive because it’s correct and factual…so I’ll go with the obvious…”

”Well. Obviously. It’s Winter.”

When “yeah, it’s bloody freezing isn’t it!” and a giggle was what was expected in return.

And in your case, you acknowledge the reality and then follow it up with a positive, factual statement.

Forgive me if you’re not ND and I’ve assumed you are but if the “Yes, but” statement is a bit of an echolalia thing that you do regularly or a sort of learned response that is an automatic style of communication… (they’ve said something negative so I will put a positive spin on it to make it seem more cheerful)…some NT people will see it as grating if they don’t have any insight into Neurodiversity. I used to always get snide looks and sniggers for saying, “It’s really interesting that…” a lot. I hadn’t noticed. And I had a lot of things I DO find REALLY interesting. I’m highly masking, and do quite well socially so I’m essentially able to mask and “fit in”. But it’s draining trying to remember all the unwritten rules and put on a voice that isn’t interpreted as sarcastic.

But many of the examples given are about power, control and games that people play socially to belittle, manipulate, gaslight even. And that’s a different kettle of fish altogether.

Personally, I think it all comes down to intent and motive. The example in the OP doesn’t sound at all like neurodivergent behaviour. I think it’s genuinely malicious at worse, or someone stuck in a childhood behaviour at best.