To feel so fed up that the only way to get a good education seems to be privately?

[Greensha]

I’m uk based. I live in a reasonably nice area but the schools are rubbish. We’ve looked further afield and they’re all pretty similar. I don’t know if my expectations are off but the classes are huge, like 30 kids in one room (I thought 25 was the max!). The buildings scruffy. One had a lovely lunch room and nice outside space but the rest of the school was falling down. There’s absolutely no way we can afford private and the one local to us is worlds apart to these state schools. I am trying to remind myself that a lot of that is superficial, the teaching is the same in both sectors as the teachers are the same and I know my dc will leave school with a proper and ‘real’ understanding of life. I can’t help but feel my kids are at a disadvantage overall though and it upsets me. Why should some kids get small classes, loads of sport opportunities and nice clean and tidy environments when others don’t. Doesn’t seem right or fair.

Your insistence that there's no drug taking at private schools is pretty naive.

@OnGoldenPond nowhere did I say there was no drug taking at private schools.

That assumes your kids are in top sets, though. Mine are not yet in secondary, so no idea where they will be placed in sets, but regardless of their ability I want them to be able to reach their potential in a calm and safe learning environment.

Well we're managing to agree on something at last. I'm sure you will also recognise that state schools are not all raging coke dens either?

You also seem to have got hold of the idea that I have something against private schools? You are very wide of the mark. I am not pro or anti either sector. I am pro good schools, which can be found in both sectors. Just trying to introduce some grasp on reality as the private sector is not all sunlit meadows. It has its own problems, with drug use being an issue which has been coming up more and more in the private schools in my area. Can't comment on your area, as I have no idea where you are! Pretending private schools are all mini paradises helps no one.

@OnGoldenPond

I'm sure you will also recognise that state schools are not all raging coke dens either?
Did I say they were raging coke dens?

Both my DC attended private schools and didn't end up with drug habits. But a good number of their privately educated peers did run into problems caused by drug use. Very few of their state school peers did.

Why did you send your children to private school if the school had such a bad drug problem and the state school didn’t? You say your children didn’t end up with drug habits but they easily could’ve done if, as you say, drugs were so easily available.
Did you raise the widespread drug problem with the school authorities?

There was/is drug taking at DS's state grammar. DS was very surprised that people actually did it. Thankfully I raised DS correctly and he's never touched the stuff

Problems became apparent while DS was there. One of the reasons he chose state sixth form college. Turned out to be a good decision when the previously described events occurred relating to his peers who stayed in the private school. Similar stories in other local private schools heard from others I know with DC there. I know a lot of people who sent DC to private schools.

Both DC tell me it was a relief to leave the private schools and get away from the drug cultures there.

Them's the bald empirical facts. No opinions expressed by me. Make what you will of them. I have no axe to grind.

We could put our dc in private school. But we never would.

A child doesn't need private education in the UK to succeed. I know many children that have gone to private school and have average jobs.

The more successful ones came as an immigrant, didn't speak English and now they lead the top AI for the government. Raised in a rough part of London.

. I don’t know if my expectations are off but the classes are huge, like 30 kids in one room (I thought 25 was the max!).

30 has been standard for donkeys years, I'm pushing 40 & there were 30 in the class when i was at school.

There are lots of lovely schools. I don't know any genuinely nice areas where the schools are really rubbish?

@OnGoldenPond

Similar stories in other local private schools heard from others I know with DC there. I know a lot of people who sent DC to private schools.

That’s good your children saw what was happening and went to another school, but are the parents who still have dc at these private schools raising the matter of the widespread drug use with the headmaster/mistress? Or are they also removing their dc - in which case presumably these schools will close?

If you can't afford a private school and you can't afford a private tutor, spend 30 minutes- an hour a day going through the work a subject and recapping things or making sure they understand things fully. Another subject the next day and so on. There are loads of resources available these days. You can buy workbooks and revision guides for most subjects, and there are loads of YouTube videos or online quizzes or other resources like MOOCs if you want to go deeper into a subject at a higher level. Just do what you can. It will be a lot more than a lot of children receive.

It's really not true. Remember that private schools are a business and they go all out to win your custom. Our children also need far more downtime than we think, private schools are full on and leave time for very little outside of the school gates.

No idea. Not my problem frankly. Their money to waste if they want to.

If you think bullying in non-existent in private schools, well, you’re just wrong.

In our very, very narrow window of experience, compared to the state secondary my child attended first the difference was night and day. Mainly due to the Scottish state schools having no meaningful behavioural sanctions available to them.

No they are anecdotal evidence, not empirical facts. Anecdotal evidence is based on personal experiences, while empirical facts are based on systematic observation and data collection, so your story is anecdotal.

Do uou have evidence of this? I have worked in an independent for years - we all have degrees, PGCEs and QTS. There is no management intention to employ unqualified teachers. Parents demand qualifications.

And it happens often in state as well. Lots asked to teach out of specialism. I’ve taught (successfully as it happens) a subject I don’t even have a GCSE in, to GCSE level.
In training we were told to keep it quiet if we’d done well at Maths in secondary to avoid teaching KS3 Maths (there were shortages when I trained too).
Many non-specialists are currently teaching across the country in a range of subjects (but especially in core subjects and even more so in Maths and Physics).

When I was at school (I’m 50) there were always 30-32 per class and there were no teaching assistants to help the teacher. We all did ok.

My niece (13) goes to a private school (8-15 per class depending on the subject) and her parents pay for an external maths tutor as the school’s maths department is so bad. Niece also had this at her junior private school in a different country so neither school seem to be any good.

DB is planning on moving niece to another school in the hope it will be better.

Wrong. Many child don't need private education to succeed but until our state system adequately carers for ND and other SEN sadly, many do. Even more sadly, for most it's unattainable so those children have to cope as best they can or don't end up out of education completely. It's lovely that your kid and so many on here were ok / brilliant in state but to see such a sweeping statement as yours is utterly depressing at this point. Clearly there's still a huge amount of ignorance about the failings in the state sector and the enormous chasms that kids fall through when they can't fit the mould.

The idea that private schools are automatically ‘ better’ than state schools is a myth perpetuated by the private businesses who charge the average take home pay in the U.K. to educate some children ( the children from the highest earners).

I agree that they are not automatically better. It has been stated many many times on here and elsewhere that the right school for the right child might be state, private or a mix at different ages. A huge amount of these discussions are based on complete ignorance, tropes and myths in all directions.

As someone who hires staff in a globally company - give me a state educated, able graduate with some real life work experience - part time job in a shop or fast food place etc - over ANY privately educated candidate all day long.
We don’t need candidates who can ski or sail or who ‘interned’ in mummy or daddy’s company for the summer.
We need well rounded,hardworking candidates who can get on well with people from all backgrounds, and who really worked for those exams, studied independently and have a bit of determination and grit about them. Kids who were tutored, hand-held and has their paths eased through life on everything? Their overconfident is grating to say the least.

@twistyizzy

Definition of the word empirical: "based on, concerned with, or verifiable by observation or experience rather than theory or pure logic." Oxford English Dictionary.

Go back and re-read my original post. It relates events that I actually observed. So, by the above definition, empirical facts.

Empirical does not mean statistically significant. I did not claim to have collected a large sample of data or make any extrapolations about the full population of British schools (private or otherwise) based on my personal experiences.

Importantly, though, I did not make any generalised pronouncements based just on my personal opinions. I stated events I had observed with NO statement of any conclusions drawn about schools in general from those facts.

OK? Has that cleared things up for you?

It’s also a myth that children are in classes of 30 all day long in secondary school.
DCs are at a state comp, a big one, and class sizes vary according to subject. Maths - for one is 18 and the other one is 12, languages - vary so once DC is 16 for one and 13 for the other, 18 in another. Sciences capped at 20 in lab and on and on.
In fact the only ones over 25 students are the home room which is for registration in the morning for 20mins and after lunch and PE is sometimes 30 for outdoors sport like football or crosscounty but small grp for the fitness suite or tennis.

That’s actually unusual these days (for cost). We have classes of 32 for everything in Year 7 and 8. Then 26 in Year 9. Year 10 and 11 vary by subject. English is 26 in every class. Some option classes have been as small as 4! Maths might be larger in top and middle sets enabling lower set to be smaller.

In state sector it comes down to cost. At A Level our school caps classes at 20. This is increasingly unusual.