To think the call back into the office is an example of the patriarchy very much alive and well?

[Yestttlo]

And anyone who thinks otherwise is either brainwashed by the patriarchy or isn’t a mother with a huge proportion of child related responsibility on her shoulders? (Or someone who is in a job where they can’t work from home so don’t want to support other women having the right to).

I have worked from home since covid. Been in the office eight times where it was necessary, for instance a company away day or face to face client meeting. I have a young dc and the call back to the office will damage my career progression due to time spent travelling which means I can’t be online longer and because I will be stretched to get household stuff done .. no I don’t mean I clean the toilets during work hours but that I can put a wash on first thing and know I can unload it at lunch, or get cooking done for the evening during my lunch break which means my evening is not chaotic and I can actually rest a little before starting in full force again the next day.

I will be fighting it to the very end. I will make my views clear. I strongly believe that forcing people into offices hugely disproportionately affects women. My work can be done anywhere. Forcing back into offices is a neon sign that the patriarchy is alive and well. Thoughts?

Same. It might be because we are an entirely remote (international) team.
We enjoy flexibility and (apart from maternity leave) there's little difference in what we're doing - school run, school events, appointments, sick kid at home, going to the shops, caring for parents. There's no astonishment or comment.

@denhaag because it’s not honoured is it? Whoever is doing it - and it’s mostly women for the reasons I’ve said - gets no credit for it. Should your employer give yout credit for having a child? No not directly. But we should live in a world where whoever is caring for a child is respected and it’s a right to have adjustments made where for example working from home makes that work better. I have more important things to do like collect my child on time that sit and talk bollocks about last nights tv with Kevin from accounts. Let’s celebrate dedication to bringing up children, not making unnecessary obstacles to doing so

This! Nailed it. Wfh just means women have to do more domestic tasks at the same time.

Yes, I agree with this completely.

There are a lot of people who will take the piss with WFH. And it's not easy to spot as some think, many jobs aren't mainly about measurable productivity points that will be regular for all. It can be very hard to manage people, to see if they struggle, to mentor, offer help and improve performance.

And it can be very difficult to prove people are skivving off even when you suspect it and that can make it difficult to fire them. Some companies do things like measure keystrokes to help deal with that, but God, that's worse than being in the office IMO. (Apparently people have figured out ways to get aroundthese measures though, machines that wiggle your mouse etc. Which goes to show that there are really people who are not being honest with WFH.)

Training young people is very difficult in settings where people mainly WFH.

Actually OP it’s because of people like you that employers are pulling staff into the office. Pisstakers who do the washing/run errands/look after their kids while their employer is paying them to work for them.

Working from home doesn’t mean you pay for less childcare, your children are meant to be in childcare regardless of where you work, and plenty of employers now make applicants sign a declaration that they have additional childcare in place if they’re working from home.

I work from home full-time which suits me on some levels as I have a disability. However working from home means I’ve worked for a company for two years, have done all of my training remotely, and have never once met any of my colleagues. My job is such that I need to be seen at my desk so there’s no scope for taking the piss like so many do. But even if I didn’t have to be visible, I’m paid to do a job, not the washing and cleaning the house and cooking tonight’s dinner.

If your partner doesn’t pick up the slack then that’s something you raise with him. If he refuses to pull his weight then that’s a problem that’s nothing to do with WFH.

This is a patriarchal view in itself. The assumption that employers have the upper hand and don't actually need talented people to do the work that creates the value and income for them.

Employers who value their people and work with them, instead of against them, get better outcomes.

If employers in the UK had to have workers' councils, the RTO trend would not be happening.

Is career really the most important thing in life?.

No but many people choose a 'career' rather than a 'job' and it's natural to want to progress in that career. There is quite a bit of evidence emerging that shows women are disproportionately impacted by WFH when it comes to career progression. One of the reasons is the lack of exposure and opportunities to learn from other female leaders through observation and interaction.

It's more important that washing your husbands socks

You haven’t responded to the comments about your lazy husband OP. If posters have been unfair, stand up for him! If they haven’t, stand up for yourself.

We have flex (we can WFH 50%) in our office and the men are just as eager as the women to be at home when the kids return from school and to put dinner in the slow cooker at lunch time etc etc. I’m seeing both sexes at work enjoy the practical benefits of WFH 5 days per fortnight. If your husband genuinely can’t WFH because he’s a plumber or a doctor or something, at least ensure that he’s pulling his weight when he comes home if he’s not already.

Are they? Women don’t own companies or run businesses? That’s news to me, I’ve worked for two companies owned by women.

Exactly - MNers are obsessed with people using WFH as childcare. You'd think childcare didn't exist.

And the fact that the odd person posts on MN about WFH while having a toddler at home does not mean that everyone with young kids is doing it.

I'm a man and I do agree regarding the laundry and cooking.

My wife works two days a week, which coincides with me working from home.

It allows me to:
Drop my sons off at school and childminder.
Do mine and their laundry.
I prep dinner during my lunch break and then cook it in the Instant Pot, so that I don't need to monitor it/risk it burning if I get caught up in work.
Collect the kids from the childminder at 5pm.

I'm not sure I'd agree that it impacts women disproportionately. I expect most people do these tasks when they work from home.

No... I see it as almost the opposite. You want to work from home so you can do household related chores. If we are saying the call back to the office is regarsinf the patriarchy, we are effectively accepting that household chores are 'female' chores. They're not - they're shares chores. In fact, my husband does more household chores/ childcare than I do as I have the more demanding job.

Instead, an argument that would make more sense would that the call back to the office is making life more difficult for working parents. That, I would agree with.

Would you not be amenable to 1 or 2 days in the office even OP? Give it a go and see how you get on first!

You can 'choose' in the sense that you can find a WFH job. Or you can put in a flexible working request, though there's no obligation for your employer to accept it, absent a good reason on your part.

However, you cannot 'choose' in the sense of being able to WFH even if your employer wants you in the office. Their obligation is to their business, not to your childcare arrangements. These indignant 'being forced back into the office' threads are starting to take the proverbial.

You have the choice to find alternative employment if you’re unhappy!

And in any event, managers who judge people on where their bottoms are located when they do their work, rather than the outputs and even more importantly the outcomes of that work need to go back to management school.

It's not about 'prestenteeism'. It's about relationships, observing and learning. There are lots of aspects of working with people that doesn't translate well online.

Rightly or wrongly the lion's share of child rearing and household chores fall on women - which is work - yet we are expected to work outside the home also, as it has now become almost impossible to raise a family on one salary. So much for choice... most people no longer have a choice whether to be a stay at home parent or work outside the home they must do this, yet balancing this with going to into the office is VERY hard. Making WFH more difficult, when everyone knows it can work very effectively is ridiculous - WFH it should be available for anyone unless there is a very good business reason not to have it.

I work for a very big advertising company who have announced going up to 4 days a week in office this week. It’s not gone down well. In the 5 years since Covid we have seen an increase in women staying in the business, people staying in the business post children and people from lower income backgrounds being able to start work in an industry which has typically been a bit privileged really. It’s a demanding industry where late work and sometimes odd hours are standard and some of this being from
home had meant many of us have been able to manage our family commitments while keeping up with this kind of role.

Many in my position are now reconsidering if we can maintain our roles - something will have to give if we’re commuting more often and losing the time to handle our family life with work. That is absolutely going to be an anti family thing.

I like working from the office by the way. I just can’t do it all!

So if you don’t work for money then find another job? You, quite literally, say that working isn’t about earning for you, so your choosing this as a hill to die on is moot for most women who work for money. You are performative at best.

Also, find a better husband. I don’t wfh mostly but my husband can and picks up 50% pick ups / drop offs and throws on a wash when he gets chance. We split domestic duties between us because both of our careers matter. Your main issue is not employers but women not choosing better men

Oh, just to say that I agree with you that the call back to to office disproportionately affects women... but only in households where the woman takes the primary role in domestic chores and childcare. You and your husband do have a choice over that!

Is everything ok?
You seem quite….. intense.

Fire hazard to have it on when no one home

So why can't your partner do more? You are avoiding the questions.

It sounds like you want to WFH to save on childcare.

This is a you issue op.