To think the call back into the office is an example of the patriarchy very much alive and well?

[Yestttlo]

And anyone who thinks otherwise is either brainwashed by the patriarchy or isn’t a mother with a huge proportion of child related responsibility on her shoulders? (Or someone who is in a job where they can’t work from home so don’t want to support other women having the right to).

I have worked from home since covid. Been in the office eight times where it was necessary, for instance a company away day or face to face client meeting. I have a young dc and the call back to the office will damage my career progression due to time spent travelling which means I can’t be online longer and because I will be stretched to get household stuff done .. no I don’t mean I clean the toilets during work hours but that I can put a wash on first thing and know I can unload it at lunch, or get cooking done for the evening during my lunch break which means my evening is not chaotic and I can actually rest a little before starting in full force again the next day.

I will be fighting it to the very end. I will make my views clear. I strongly believe that forcing people into offices hugely disproportionately affects women. My work can be done anywhere. Forcing back into offices is a neon sign that the patriarchy is alive and well. Thoughts?

Also there is a separate discussion here: why are women doing the lion’s share on the domestic front?

I’m sorry, but I disagree. WFH is fine for people established in their jobs and teams where the work is routine, although even then so very many people take the piss. It’s terrible for senior roles, team cohesion, managing poor behaviour, young people, and anyone wanting to learn new skills or move up to a new position. I’ve WFH since Covid and my company started with a hybrid two years ago and is steadily increasing the amount of time in the office, and the positive impact is very obvious.

I think WFH can be terrible for women. Women will often choose to do it in order to make life run more smoothly. It means they miss out on the in office chats, network building and banter, aren't seen as fully part of the team, it highlights how they have chosen to put home and family above work and so their commitment to the job / desire for advancement and promotion is seen as lesser. Men often don't feel the same level of responsibility to making family life run smoothly so they prioritise being in the office.

(Obviously not all women and not all men.)

Unless everyone works from home full time it is just another way in which women get beaten with the "you can have it all (but actually you just end up doing all the work and getting none of the credit)" stick.

@Shooperpooper yes i will fight it until it gets messy if it has to. I am fortunate to be in circumstances where I can do so without worry about money. But there’s no way I will let it go and will make it incredibly hard for them to force me out

Aren’t most HR Directors women? 🤷‍♀️

No thanks. If I was working from home then all the work in the home would be picked up by me. All the networking and meeting of new people/contacts, and I mean properly meeting them not online, would pass me by. I don't want to be chained to my house. I want a career outside of my where I relax, live and sleep. We make it work and I don't think it's difficult to do so.

sorry but you sound like a nightmare 😂

My dh wfh and does the washing. It doesn’t have to be the woman but if the dynamic in the household is that women are doing more then that’ll be the case if they are wfh or in the office, it’s just easier if you remove the commute and can use breaks to spread out jobs. Women will be most adversely affected by back to the office plans. I think there’s a balance but it’s very dependent on the job.

Personally I think 1 or 2 days in the office should be obligatory. People would still have 3 or 4 days at home, but it would massively improve the cohesion between staff and keep staff involved with the employer. Best of both Worlds really. I just can't see how someone who never goes near their office from one month to another can possibly keep themselves aware of what's happening, who their colleagues are, etc. It's also unfair that those who do go into the office bear the burden of training new/young staff, have to deal with whatever happens to need doing in the office at the time, etc.

@CaptainCarrotsBigSword true but if it reverts to office work and men - the patriarchy - still don’t pick up the slack at home then women are in an even worse position.

Getting to the point where childcare responsibilities are actually celebrated and honoured is the step that’s needed, not forcing women into a corner again

We can choose- by deciding whether to take a role which requires office attendance or by looking for a 100% wfh role. What we can't do is demand employers set their policy the way we might like.

This, if you chose the job in an office then you work in an office, not that difficult to understand
people need to realise employers don’t care, you’re replaceable

If you can do everything brilliantly from home, why go to the face to face meeting and away days?

or was there maybe something additional for those than in person interaction achieved.

that same benefit that comes from live interaction with colleagues.

@Shooperpooper i intend to be! Feel very strongly about it. But then again I work with men who refer to ‘babysitting’ their own children

You sound very entitled. Most people can't wfh, they still cope.

I think we all need to be a bit more mad at the people who took the piss when working from home.

I'm disabled, I never took it for granted. (And thankfully I am still allowed to WFH 80% of the time)

But plenty of people took advantage of the trust placed in them

@Vannymcvan yes most women cope. And it’s long overdue to stop forcing women to simply ‘cope.’

I'm FT WFH. It's in my contract. I love it. I do get out and about for work fairly frequently. Which I also enjoy. My children are older now. I look back on the mad dashes each morning and evening and breathe a sigh of relief that those days have passed. I'm not sure I'd have changed it though. I was on my own with two children for 10yrs. Always worked full time (had to). My mum was a legend. As were childminders, breakfast clubs and friends. I do think - gruelling though it was - it helped preserve my identity. It was definitely good for my children to have socialisation outside the home. And to know that mummy had to bring home the (vegetarian) bacon. I'm not sure calling people back to the office is patriarchal. I think it makes sense in a number of set-ups and circumstances. I agree with the PP who said WFH traps women into doing it all often.

Why not just look for a job somewhere that is fully or largely remote?

It was in the news recently that WFH holds women’s careers back as they are overlooked for promotion against people in the office and they are not being trained face to face so not as skilled. Working near other colleagues can improve skills in ways that an online training course can not replace.

I responded to say employers are the patriarchy.

You lost me here frankly. This whole discussion is becoming batshit, especially as I'm afraid that a lot of jobs are going to be lost as many employers just give up under the extra burden of NI, and employee rights.

Surely this would be a better use of your energy than ‘fighting’ it OP

@Yestttlo whats your DH doing in all this? Why is there no equality at home? Surely you should both be sharing the chores and the childcare? My husband does more than 50% of both

I did work from home. I was very isolated particularly during lockdown

I now work in a job which I can’t work from home . I have a very understanding managerial team who have allowed me to skip out of work for a meeting - go in late after go appointments..

I am also a Lp and yes I can get things done when I worked from home like you say washing / phone calls meal prep however i absolutely feel like I am me and able to be me at work .

I assume I am brainwashed in your opinion .. as that is your argument anyone who disagrees with you is brainwashed or doesn’t work from home

@hamstersarse hr don’t run companies 🤦🏼‍♀️