To think the call back into the office is an example of the patriarchy very much alive and well?

[Yestttlo]

And anyone who thinks otherwise is either brainwashed by the patriarchy or isn’t a mother with a huge proportion of child related responsibility on her shoulders? (Or someone who is in a job where they can’t work from home so don’t want to support other women having the right to).

I have worked from home since covid. Been in the office eight times where it was necessary, for instance a company away day or face to face client meeting. I have a young dc and the call back to the office will damage my career progression due to time spent travelling which means I can’t be online longer and because I will be stretched to get household stuff done .. no I don’t mean I clean the toilets during work hours but that I can put a wash on first thing and know I can unload it at lunch, or get cooking done for the evening during my lunch break which means my evening is not chaotic and I can actually rest a little before starting in full force again the next day.

I will be fighting it to the very end. I will make my views clear. I strongly believe that forcing people into offices hugely disproportionately affects women. My work can be done anywhere. Forcing back into offices is a neon sign that the patriarchy is alive and well. Thoughts?

What do you want? Workplace equality or to be treated differently because you are a woman and have carer and household responsibilities?

I think the problem lies at home - that your partner isn't pulling his weight.

I disagree with this I industries like social care, teaching, probation services, nursing, care provision are all female dominated (not particularly well renumerated ) and without the option to work from home.
The patriarchy is alive and well in the expectation that it's women who flex their careers to accommodate childcare, school pick ups etc.

Well I'm a mother and definitely not brainwashed. Tbh from my view it sounds like you're brainwashed. Someone has made you believe that you should work and do the majority of childcare and house chores. Why should an employer enable your house life? That is up to your husband. I work in an office and manage. Think of all the people who can't work from home and do long shifts like nurses? Are they brainwashed? You should very privileged.

It sounds like you're saying that women have a bigger need to stay at home to look after the children and do chores.

Fuck that.

Quite.Not all of us live downtrodden lives of domestic drudgery, OP, and I'm getting a little bit tired of the MN assumption that we all married useless men.

@Jennaveeve correct. I don’t want to farm out my child all hours possible because my employer can’t be flexible. Again, being a parent and having childcare responsibilities should be honoured. It’s not because it’s seen as the women’s job.

Wfh mostly benefits women and the patriarchy don’t like it.

WFH means women do more unpaid labour and it can harm their career progression

Choose a different job.

Depends what 'the office' is. In my university, staff offices were deserted after the pandemic. Old lags like me were fine (I've left now) but it clearly has affected the newer and younger intake of teaching staff as well as postgraduate students who relied a lot on a critical mass of academics to be there outside classroom hours to talk to.

No-one is around for the many informal chats that constituted the additional mentoring of less experienced staff. The lunches and coffees where newer staff got to meet others with different roles and experiences and where lots of 'shop' talk got done are gone. Experienced people do their teaching and go home. Meetings are mainly remote.

Younger staff get email and 'it's all in the linked folder' handovers instead of face to face talking and demonstrating and sharing class time. The amount of mentoring, supervision and general passing-on of experience that can be done on zoom is lean and basic.

Management were initially happy with the way remote technology allowed staff to work 'smartly' but are now trying to get older, experienced staff to stay in 'the office' outside classroom sessions but those staff don't want to any more and prefer their newly-networked, comfortable study at home. More of the new, young staff are female than male.

@Yestttlo

LMFAO. So you don't want to go back into the office because it means you can't get the housework done?

Are you for real?!

No wonder many employers are keen for their 'employees' to get back into the office!

Is career really the most important thing in life?

because the patriarchy makes them WFH init 😀lol

OP you’ve been away from the office so long you’ve forgotten the extra stuff that works better face to face.
Good for you if you’re happy in your established role but your company are looking at a bigger picture.
I am a feminist but don’t think WFH is the answer to a better deal for all women.
You're being selfish and why not, but your company aren’t necessarily being unreasonable.

I agree with you and @NeverDropYourMooncup even for those who argue “having kids is a choice” disability certainly isn’t.

I’m also concerned at the impact of WFH on finances. UK wages are far too low, they have fallen in real terms and senior employers are happy with that, but yet are demanding more time and money is spent traveling to offices.

I’m very fortunate that as a reasonable adjustment I only need to go to my office once a month, but the last time I went the train was so late going there and returning there that what would be a one hour journey if I drove was 2.5 hours each way. I was frozen stiff hanging about waiting for connections.

The government wants to sort out wages and the state of public transport first before dragging people back into the office for nothing. Btw I work for a large organisation that has various offices in England and wales. If I go to my local office I see a couple of people from my team at best if they happen to be in that day. There would be no benefit in terms of “teamworking” for me to turn up 3 or 4 times a week just to show my face .

Many are in the same position and yet it’s being demanded they show up anyway.

How is that example of patriarchy within the workplace? Aren't your children your husband's responsibility, too? It seems like your husband is the issue.

@CheeseTime this is a balanced view, thank you. I have worked with entitled men long enough though to let this one go.

No, but if you are in a career, it's natural to want to progress.

how many men talk about enjoying wfh because they can pop a wash on at lunchtime?

I work on a team with 8 others - 5 women, 3 men. We're all roughly the same age, mainly mid to late 30's and most of us have children.

Of the 3 men, I've heard all of them on WFH days make reference to things like pegging a wash out, just made a curry in my lunch hour for later, started 20 minutes early today so I can do the school run at 9.

I personally don't see much difference at all between men and women with families who wfh 🤷‍♀️ Maybe I just work with a particularly nice bunch.

I have it as a reasonable adjustment
My job is heavily monitored and it's done as easily at home as in the office so it's impossible to skive!

Really. I predominantly work from home. I'm up usually at 5am for a run, start work about 6.30am, usually finish about 6.30pm, not unheard of for me to do calls at 9pm Am I lazy or do you just not have a clue what you're talking about?

I WFH and its seen as a joke job now because I am at home it is difficult for people to understand I am actually working.

I agree with you OP. It's mainly rich men with stay at home wives who don't want to take responsibility for their own kids who call for RTO. Although you do get the odd female CEO who insists on it as well.

Take heart though. After the Black Death the peasants wanted more money and the landowners fought hard. But in the end they had to capitulate. Following covid, people have seen that spending hours commuting to sit on Teams calls in an office is pointless. Employers don't like the loss of control. And are sticking their fingers in their ears saying la la la can't hear you when employees say they want more flexibility. But things will change.

I think you should be able to choose if your employer deems it appropriate for the business. Your sex and childcare responsibilities shouldn't impact on whether it's a viable choice.

I’m not sure I agree that this is a patriarchal move from the employer. They have a business requirement / strategy and are inacting it.

I personally work from home and it is great as with two young kids I sleep not that much and I get a little done household wise during my lunch hour and before work. However, my husband in a much higher paying job, also works from home and does probably more school and nursery / school drop offs and pick ups than me.

By all means argue the change as you will have custom in practice on your side but as I imagine you don’t have a work from home contract and this is in no way discrimination you might find yourself dismissed if you refuse to comply.

Sorry as it must be a bit stressful (I know that’s how I would feel if me or DH were recalled full time to the office!).

Yes there always seems to be this assumption that everyone wants to progress.

Everyone doesn't. And in any event, managers who judge people on where their bottoms are located when they do their work, rather than the outputs and even more importantly the outcomes of that work need to go back to management school.

I hate WFH from a social POV and there is absolutely no way I’m doing laundry on my lunch break but I find the lack of distraction really positive and the lack of commute on top of nursery drop off is the difference between me being able to work in my job and not. The little 30 mins I save on either side is a game changer.

Saying that, my job can be done from home well and there’s zero benefit to being in the office (I pop in for meetings where necessary). I’m sure some jobs it just doesn’t fit and some people who use it as an opportunity to skive (although back when I was office based I worked alongside quite a few office based skivers 🤷‍♀️)