To think the call back into the office is an example of the patriarchy very much alive and well?

[Yestttlo]

And anyone who thinks otherwise is either brainwashed by the patriarchy or isn’t a mother with a huge proportion of child related responsibility on her shoulders? (Or someone who is in a job where they can’t work from home so don’t want to support other women having the right to).

I have worked from home since covid. Been in the office eight times where it was necessary, for instance a company away day or face to face client meeting. I have a young dc and the call back to the office will damage my career progression due to time spent travelling which means I can’t be online longer and because I will be stretched to get household stuff done .. no I don’t mean I clean the toilets during work hours but that I can put a wash on first thing and know I can unload it at lunch, or get cooking done for the evening during my lunch break which means my evening is not chaotic and I can actually rest a little before starting in full force again the next day.

I will be fighting it to the very end. I will make my views clear. I strongly believe that forcing people into offices hugely disproportionately affects women. My work can be done anywhere. Forcing back into offices is a neon sign that the patriarchy is alive and well. Thoughts?

This post makes me feel old and baffled. When my kids were tiny (back in the 2010s) I worked FT in a 9-5 office job. As did their Dad. WFH was not a thing. We managed. Tired but fine. I loved being out of the house being 'me' rather than always Mummy. I was treated by colleagues as an adult with interests and motivations beyond being a parent. I would have hated WFH. That's the personal perspective. I am also always astonished about people's sense of entitlement to WFH so they can deal with all their personal life matters. In 2013 I left my company and set up my own business so have actually always WFH since then, but I really miss the comaraderie of the office and the separation of work from home.

Yeah, I don't quite understand how some posters are having trouble understanding this.

Lots of jobs aren't totally productivity driven , in the sense that measurable output isn't the goal, or there can be a lot of variation in productivity naturally.

Or - how to you measure how effective or creative an innovation is, say? If an employee had an idea at home alone, vs in an environment where she could bounce it around with other people, how do you measure the difference in the end product or service?

And even if you suspect someone is slacking, you can't usually just fire them, you often need some kind of paper trail and some kind of evidence. You can't just show up at people's homes.

How do you look to see if someone is working effectively?

I also think a lot of what is happening isn't deliberate skivving although that is going on a fair bit. But what managers are also seeing is a kind of creeping drop in productivity, which the employees themselves are not noticing very clearly. They don't realize they are doing less. They don't notice that the quality of their output is suffering. They don't notice that they haven't been doing things like mentoring or having higher level discussions about the job. So it's not even something that can be pinned on one bad employee, it's a decline across the board which is starting to have an impact.

It can be surprising how quickly many people forget what their work was like 10 years ago, or how much value it brought to the company.

OP I don't think that WFH works well for every person. A colleague of mine chooses to attend at the office - even though WFH is an option - as she deems it as having a better work/home balance. She goes to work, completes her contracted hours and goes home. She felt that WFH spilled over into her home life as she would sometimes find herself back at her "home office" desk once the children had gone to bed. We are in the fortunate position where we have the option, some jobs don't support that though. I think you will find it difficult to attempt to re-negotiate the terms of your contract if it clearly states that you work X hours in X office base. Patriarchy or not - a contract is something both you and the employer agreed to so, legally, that is what will stand. It is easy for a company to hold a face to face meeting for 30 minutes a day at 1pm for a "catch up" therefore showing proof of your need to be on premises.

I don't disagree that there should be some flexibility however I just don't know if you will win this one.

I think you are the one misunderstanding people's tone here. They are trying to tell you why there has been a generalized trend to get people back working. It's not a conspiracy or rocket science, it's because for a lot of jobs, it's not effective to have WFH, at least 100% of the time. And people misjudge their own productivity too.

And you just keep saying, well, I'm effective and it's great for me.

Yes, and I also commented on that and referred to bad management and that people in jobs where they record time know where they're most productive.

I had already commented on the results of the survey, so reiterating it was pointless, IMO. I'd seen it and commented both on a personal and more general level.

My opinion is that poor managers seemingly can't cope with how to manage, both in the office or WFH, and if they could, then productivity wouldn't be an issue in either location.

I'm not sure how they measure those who don't actually have to log time though to get to the alleged 73%.

Well, they don't need the metrics to ask people "are you more productive at home or in the office?"

73% said they're more productive when wfh but generally most managers disagree when surveyed.

My DH does all the laundry

Our work is divided - half the Gen z employees seem to want to come in, have a social life, have somewhere to work that’s not a room in a shared flat the other half seem to have a baffling array of health issues which prevent them from leaving the house…

COVID may be partially responsible for that. I know quite a few previously very fit and healthy and driven people who have been left pretty disabled by long COVID or other conditions that have flared or been triggered by COVID.

Guess which half will see the most rapid career progression? The same thing is going on in universities and there’s huge indignation when the half that show up get better degrees than those who never leave their rooms or won’t turn their cameras on for a virtual seminar.

Am all for smashing the patriarchy, but I don't fancy trying to do it while also unloading the dishwasher and knocking up a casserole in my lunch break.

Love this!

If you have a bad health issue you are pretty happy to have some career progression, you make your peace with the slower pace. Or certainly I have. Many people with my condition don't work at all. The fact I work (albeit mainly at home) is down to grit and tenacity.

@chocolatespreadsandwich you know that feminists need to do their laundry too...

My husband also works from home and he has sorted dinner tonight. Risotto. The kids probably won't go for it but that's toddler life isn't it.

So we divide the chores 50:50 and complete our work to a high standard.

Seems pretty feminist to me, no?

In any case, my point is that people who work from home are not always shirking. It is possible to be more productive at home than in an office. Luckily my firm recognise that and there are absolutely no plans to drag people back to the office. In fact we now have hot desks in the office rather than individual offices, which we had pre-covid. Before the Christmas lunch it was chaos. Everyone in, so loud, couldn't concentrate.

I go in once a week, it's nice, I like chatting with colleagues and browsing the shops in my lunch hour. But is it as productive as working from home? No.

In summary, WFH can be extremely productive and doesn't always indicate shirking. It fits into my life with small children, and my boss is happy with my output. Win win I'd say.
And I got promoted on mat leave so I don't think my career progression is getting stunted.

Of course they do. But an equal division of labour in the household is key, not women working from home so they can be a housewife on top of their day job.

If you have that equal division then great, but it wasn't clear from the post I commented on

This.

i have just started a new job, it’s 100% office based. I’m learning so much just from listening to what the team around me are saying (I can overhear support calls, the team discuss problems they can’t solve alone etc). I wouldn’t be getting any of this if I was working from home.

WFH has been abused to the max by too many people. And now the employers have got wise to it. That’s why they are calling people back.

This.

And for those who are starting out, starting their first job, so much is learned by osmosis within the workplace.

I am watching my DC’s friends leave Uni and be confined to a bedroom in their flat or parental home, not learning how to navigate communication in a professional context as it is all so artificial on endless online meetings.

All the energy and excitement they had at Uni , spreading their wings is gone. They are going well ‘meeting targets’ but compared to the ones whose jobs demand that they are out and about they seem depressed and damped down.

They don’t yet have a school run to take care of. If they were in an office they would be popping to the sandwich shop together, making friends, playing badminton or going to the pub with co workers after work.

Being blunt for a moment.

A lot of these calls back to the office are a simple way of managing headcount.
Natural selection if you prefer.

Let’s be honest.

I work in the City - before covid in any of the restaurants and bars where networks are made and decisions taken, it was probably about 60/40 men to women, during covid it was about 95/5 men to women and it's still only about 75/25. WFH keeps us managing childcare and the house while holding down a job without having to find a solution to the fact this is almost impossible whilst keeping us out of some of the most important arenas where careers are furthered. I think WFH is seriously detrimental to women and their progression.

Yes, I'm surprised more people can't see that! Its a way to reduce headcount without needing to make any redundancies.

JPM shut down comments on an internal webpage announcing the bank’s return to office policy after dozens of them criticised the move, with at least one suggesting that employees should unionise.

Bloomberg.

Do people really believe that a company calling people back in the office is to do with their career progression or new starters not having the social side of the office or not being intergrated in to their team, or because Susan in Accounts works from her bed in her shared house. Absolutely not.

They have offices sitting empty for which they are paying millions to landlords, electricity and gas companies, wages for security/cleaners/catering because even just a handful of people in will need the office cleaning, security and most likely catering onsite.

It has nothing to do with productivity (that's down to individual managers of that team to deal with) and all to do with how much money they're losing heating and lighting an empty office building.

I'm not sure it's that simple.

If they felt it was beneficial for everyone to work from home they could sublet or sell the building and save themselves a fortune in running costs and rates etc as well. Or they would gradually run down the buildings ready for lease expiry.

Commercial office space comes with huge running costs

I absolutely agree. I could not manage 3 hours a day commute as well as childcare, my DH does a job which cannot be WFH. The blokes in charge who are most keen on return to office all have stay at home wife’s or a nanny. I’ve never heard any of them say - sorry can’t attend x meeting , it’s half term…. It’s utterly bewildering how people in senior management positions are completely unaware of their privilege. And assume we all have their resources.

100% agree.

It's no surprise that most senior or executive level employee are male. There is a gender pay gap.