To think the call back into the office is an example of the patriarchy very much alive and well?

[Yestttlo]

And anyone who thinks otherwise is either brainwashed by the patriarchy or isn’t a mother with a huge proportion of child related responsibility on her shoulders? (Or someone who is in a job where they can’t work from home so don’t want to support other women having the right to).

I have worked from home since covid. Been in the office eight times where it was necessary, for instance a company away day or face to face client meeting. I have a young dc and the call back to the office will damage my career progression due to time spent travelling which means I can’t be online longer and because I will be stretched to get household stuff done .. no I don’t mean I clean the toilets during work hours but that I can put a wash on first thing and know I can unload it at lunch, or get cooking done for the evening during my lunch break which means my evening is not chaotic and I can actually rest a little before starting in full force again the next day.

I will be fighting it to the very end. I will make my views clear. I strongly believe that forcing people into offices hugely disproportionately affects women. My work can be done anywhere. Forcing back into offices is a neon sign that the patriarchy is alive and well. Thoughts?

I think being able to wfh (excluding these who do so for health/medical reasons) is quite a privileged position to be in.

Not everyone has the space at home to have a proper work set up. Especially if there are more than one person in the house needing to wfh.

And it's really quite interesting to see a few posters say they work longer (because of no commute) if they wfh - that's great for the employer but not so much for the individual.

It's really not good for junior employees- they really benefit from face to face interactions and being able to watch others.

We are fully in the office unless there has been a flexible work request. My employer though is flexible if you need a wfh day, but generally we are in the office.

My output is easily measured, as I have a chargeable hours target. The one day I'm in the office, I rarely meet my target. The four days at home, I achieve usually 20-50% above target.

We book desks, so always sit with our team, but dear god, the office is noisy and full of distractions (workmen, the wrong temperature, crap lighting, as well as other teams being really loud). It is nice to see my team in person, but it definitely doesn't increase productivity! I'm assuming this has been reviewed by management and why we do four days at home.

Our office size is reducing as well, as areas are mothballed and the desks etc removed. There's clearly no intention of getting us all back more as there's no room for us to do so.

My husband does most things relating to the washing, but I'll sometimes hang a load out (if I get a moment). I'm more likely to vacuum or prepare something for dinner in my lunch break, however, or do a bit of cleaning. I rarely do anything domestic when I should be working.

The era of ordinary families having a SAHP and a decent standard of living was a post WW2 phenomenon. Working class women have always worked.

Snap! I said something similar upthread.
I think if you're intrinsically motivated, and can also easily measure output (e.g. with billable hours, I'm a lawyer) then working from home works very well. My job is very solitary and in a lot of ways it feels similar to when I was at uni revising for exams or writing up my thesis. I worked from home, I didn't get distracted with house stuff, I am lucky in that I don't find it difficult to focus because I enjoy my job.
But maybe for jobs that are more collaborative, aren't easy to measure output, and for people that are more easily distractible, it doesn't work. I don't know!

I'm a solicitor too. It's essentially a very solitary job, unless something weird and wonderful crops up and you need to sense check it with somebody! At which point we use Teams.

Those who struggle to meet their billing targets will struggle wherever they're working, IMO. Same as those people who are slackers (and we've all worked with some of those) will be slack either WFH or in the office.

This happens here too when he has a break from meetings just as when I do. Also gets the washing out / emptied dishwasher whilst waiting for his lunch to heat in microwave.

I actually thought your post was fair and thought provoking

I remember during the lockdowns there was a very interesting thread on WFH and the money saved. No commuting costs, no Starbucks, no lunches, no new clothes. Credit card bills were being paid off completely. Savings accounts being opened. The only increased expense being heating the room you worked in.

People moving house no longer tied to one area.

Society really did shift considerably.

Yes but the point is we talk about fighting for choice but it’s interesting how that’s only for going to work and not for being a stay at home parent… it might be dad or the mother but we don’t have that choice and I believe people should.

I work for my self and find dealing with some companies quite difficult as so many staff are WFH, a query I have could take 3 days to resolve with the accounts departments because of WFH.

Some business's not all are calling people back to the offices because WFH is no longer working as well as it maybe did.

If your employer wants you back in the office then there is a choice, leave or get on with it!

My output is easily measured, as I have a chargeable hours target. The one day I'm in the office, I rarely meet my target. The four days at home, I achieve usually 20-50% above target.

Many of my friends are lawyers and they say the same. After working well from home and achieving promotions and excelling in great client relations for the company etc they’re annoyed to be told to come back to the office 3-5 days a week.

I’d also like to point out in nearly every office I’ve worked in, its actually recommended you take regular screen/ movement breaks so actually there doesn’t need to be all this angst about someone putting on a wash or loading up a dishwasher or wiping their worktop.

In offices many people do take these regular short breaks except it would be to make coffee or drink water and chat to someone at the water cooler, smoke a cigarette, redo makeup in the toilets, chat with people in the kitchen etc.

That takes the same time as it does for someone to put on or hang up a load or load up a dishwasher. I tend to do my laundry on the weekend but I’m making a wider point about all the angst concerning people doing “domestic chores in work time”.

That wasn't just working from home, of course. It was saving by not going out for coffee and meals, to the cinema, theatre, days out, visiting friends and family, shopping trips etc. enforced thrift!

But at the aame time, you also have loads of people asking on mumsnet if they can look after their toddler while WFH - this is happening a LOT. I also have a lawyer friend who openly brags about how little she has to do when WFH and how she and her husband juggle school holidays childcare by them both WFH and somehow managing to look after their 5 year old. So WFH might improve productivity for some, but by no means all.

It's interesting that some women find working from home preferable, because they can also get on with household chores. I do wonder if men in a similar position would use this extra time on working for career progression, extra qualifications and working for promotion. Not making a casserole and hanging out the washing.

Honestly, as a Mum WFH is great. I can hang the washing on my lunch break, tody the house in my commuting time etc.

However, as a worker, if I'm in the office I have a bond woth my team. I exchange incidental information, share ideas, learn from others. At the end of the day it's me as a worker they want and it's up to me to manage my personal life through getting up early, using my slow cooker and online shopping....

I agree with your last sentence. I do think it depends on the individual and things should be monitored.

Good points.

Unfortunately, I have seen productivity fall with wfh.

Why should everyone have that choice ? Unless you are prepared to accept poverty ( eg UC - they won't ask you to seek work with a child under 3 I believe) it is a luxury- not everyone can do it.

Any employer who tried to force a disabled employee, as you describe, would undoubtedly be breaking the law by not allowing them to work from home. This is an entirely different situation.

Exactly this.
If you're wanting to WFH so you can fit in the household chores on your breaks then there is something wrong with the work balance in your home.
Aim higher. Spread the load. Don't accept that you should be the one fitting it all in to your day!

When DP worked from home in covid times, he made home-cooked lunches for both of us every day and kept the house more spotless than it's ever been.

I WFH and use my extra time to go for runs, or to lounge on the sofa watching films and reading books. Now I'm the only one WFH the house is a lot less spotless.

(I do put the washing on, which takes under a minute, so even a lazy slattern like me can rise to that domestic challenge.)

Not necessarily - it would still come down to business need. Reasonable adjustments have to be that - reasonable. If there was a good reason why his employer needed him in the office they’d still be able to insist.

Anyway on the topic of the thread it's abundantly clear that the positives of WFH depend on your role, your industry and your personality much more than your gender. It's a huge boon for a lot of women I know. In male-dominated industries you're judged more on your actual work than the in-person bro-socialising that takes place in many offices. Almost every mother I know appreciates the flexibility. But I don't think WFH is fundamentally a gender issue given that women exist across the whole spectrum of the other factors.

It’s the 21st Century not Victorian England… why should we be going backwards…