To think the call back into the office is an example of the patriarchy very much alive and well?

[Yestttlo]

And anyone who thinks otherwise is either brainwashed by the patriarchy or isn’t a mother with a huge proportion of child related responsibility on her shoulders? (Or someone who is in a job where they can’t work from home so don’t want to support other women having the right to).

I have worked from home since covid. Been in the office eight times where it was necessary, for instance a company away day or face to face client meeting. I have a young dc and the call back to the office will damage my career progression due to time spent travelling which means I can’t be online longer and because I will be stretched to get household stuff done .. no I don’t mean I clean the toilets during work hours but that I can put a wash on first thing and know I can unload it at lunch, or get cooking done for the evening during my lunch break which means my evening is not chaotic and I can actually rest a little before starting in full force again the next day.

I will be fighting it to the very end. I will make my views clear. I strongly believe that forcing people into offices hugely disproportionately affects women. My work can be done anywhere. Forcing back into offices is a neon sign that the patriarchy is alive and well. Thoughts?

The problem is your husband, not your employer. Get him to pull his weight more and life will be a lot easier.

I ageee with you OP. Back to the office when it’s not business need, just a preference, suits men who don’t want to help at home much more than it suits women or men who do need or want to.

This this this.

A huge employer in my town shut down about 5 years ago - all outsourced to India. It work, and not just calls either but more sophiticated things.

Any job that would function 100% as wfh could be outsourced.

If there comes to be a requirement that employers allow WFH for anyone who could, they have zero incentive not to outsource.

I work 9-5 and dh works 7-3 so I do drop off and dh does pick up
ds now 14 so he can look after himself But even when smaller and even if both 9-5 it is easier to collect a child from close to home than rushing back from a commute

Even though dh already wfh when ds was small we did use wrap round care as we would not have ds at home and try to work at the same time- less relevant to us now though.

I think it’s more a class thing than men v women.

Or maybe more wealthy v poorer people rather than class as such.

Business owners etc are able to make their own rules, have flexibility etc Often more senior employees too. It’s a way of stopping people further down the “food chain” having the same flexibility, work/ life balance and sense of ownership over what they’re doing.

@GertrudePerkinsPaperyThing I totally agree. How dare the plebs have any flexibility

100 Thank Yous!!! 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏.

My question would also be what did you do before covid when working from home was pretty rare?

Totally agree with all this!

When I was 16 and worked for a bank in my first job, the manager would be sat in his office reading the paper all morning smoking a cigar. He would often disappear at 3pm to "meet" clients via the golf course.

Men (at least those working in offices and finance have always had flexible working).

In my line of work, the ones who were pushing for more office time for all were all men!

Oh please... Many of the companies wanting staff back in the office will be run by women. The facts are that this was always going to happen eventually.

Respectfully, OP, YABU to think any employer will give a shit about whether you can put a wash on while you're WFH!!
Working full time, you just have to find some way of fitting all that in to be honest

DH works from home and now does far more housework than me .

Poor bloke. Does his boss know?

But surely that's just the unfortunate consequence of having children AND a full time job? You will 'cope' because that's all you can do.

I decided very early on that I didn't want to just 'cope' in life - which is why I decided not to have children. I made that decision. No one else.

This! 👏👏

Senior management want our largely female workforce to come back to the office to highlight the vital contribution these women make to the business.

Because we must just accept the status quo set up for senior able bodied men, and not try and change anything?

@Yestttlo Wfh removes the stress involved in pick up with extra travel etc etc as I assume you know

I don’t want to farm out my child all hours possible because my employer can’t be flexible. Again, being a parent and having childcare responsibilities should be honoured. It’s not because it’s seen as the women’s job.

InkHeart202
But why do you have the greater responsibility for household chores? Can your husband/partner not be responsible for putting a wash on or making dinner?

^ in my circumstances he is not able to work from home.^

What you're saying seems to imply you consider it to be YOUR responsibility alone.
Your DP can't work from home, so it's all down to you to make it work by WFH?

Are you not feeding into the patriarchy by prioritising the value of his job over yours ?

Whoever is doing it - and it’s mostly women for the reasons I’ve said - gets no credit for it. Should your employer give yout credit for having a child? No not directly.

Why do you want credit from your employer for having a child?

Your employer employs people to make his business a financial success. Is this not what you would do if you set up a business?

I really do get your point, but I think it's not just the 'patriarchial society' i.e. employers that's the problem.

Shouldn't your husband/partner also take into account the effect on your employment conditions and prospects when you have a child?

Where are all the ordinary men standing up saying that women have drawn the short straw.
That their wives are having to make sacrifices because of pregnancy and raising a family - because they are both starting a family

I agree that having children usually impacts far more on women than on men. Women are so often the default carer.

But why aren't our husbands and partners speaking out?

Why aren't they asking for more flexible hours so they can do nursery/school drop-off and pick-up . Asking for time off so they can do doctor's appointments / dentist's appointments / looking after aged parents .......... etc

It's not all down to employers to make changes if their male workforce isn't complaining and pushing for change?

Yes OP, I agree it's still a patriarchal society! - but it's going to take a big push from everyone to change the status quo.

*edited to add @OP

Except women DID change something; women campaigned for the right to vote; fought for equal opportunities in the workplace; campaigned for good maternity benefits, fought to be considered for the top jobs, fought to not just be seen as just housewives and childbearers.
The result: Womens' contribution to the workforce was then taken very seriously because of changes WE asked for.

However, those changes meant women were then expected to be breadwinners, expected to pay half towards a mortgage and any household bills AND still maintain a home and care for children.

This is what we wanted. Apparently.

Fast forward to now and we want to WFH so we can put our washing on!

I agree with another poster that this is much about class. The senior people imposing this already have flexibility. If they want to leave early to fit something in and work in the evening, they can. If they want to work in a quiet office to get away from the noise of an open plan office they can. The rest of us can not,

And I cant believe those claiming large open plan offices are quiet. They bloody are not. I appreciate more call centre workers wfh as I can now here what they are saying properly. In the past often you would hear them talking over a din in the background.

I personally hate working in large open plan offices. They are noisy, and if it is hot desking you can't sit next to anyone you actually work with anyway. But I am supposed to enjoy collaborating by being sat next to Darren who does not understand the job I do, but think he does. And he works in marketing, but just happens to be part of my section, even though we never work together, except when I ask him to tweet a post about a new project. Its such a nonsense.

Yes it’s more a class issue I believe @MerryMaker when you look at the main motivations behind it - this is hypercapitalism in action.

Also seen as how many people are allegedly in favour of office working -if this thread is anything go by - there’s clearly plenty who would happily go into the office 3-5 times a week. So why not allow those to do that and then allow the others who struggle in offices to stay at home most days? If there’s performance concerns or that doesn’t meet the needs of the business due to the specific role then obviously that’s another matter. I used to work in a corporate events role where WFH wasn’t suitable some days for example.

But why the heavy handed approach to telling everyone, irrespective of their needs and circumstances, to get back to the office when many are WFH just fine.

Just wondering how everyone went into the office 5 days a week pre-covid and didn't think it strange to have to do so?

Now we think it strange to have to go into the office 5 days a week.

What are the advantages of not doing so - apart from the obvious one of commuting time?

OP quite apart from whether you are right or wrong, I find your posts where you disagree with somebody incredibly rude.

There actually seems to be a lot of data coming out lately to suggest that people that WFH may be less productive. I'm sure it was the other way around originally so maybe people have just become complacent. However, it seems 73% of people still believe they're more productive at home.

It’s true that widespread studies based on standard measures of efficiency have found that fully remote employees are 10% to 20% less productive than those working on company premises. Challenges related to communications, coordination and self-motivation may be factors in the decline.

The new research that showed lower productivity by full-time remote workers also found that those on a hybrid schedule — some days at home and some on site — were about as productive as those in the office full time.

https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2024-01-04/2024-year-employers-clamp-down-on-remote-work-not-so-fast#:~:text=It%27s%20true%20that%20widespread%20studies,be%20factors%20in%20the%20decline.

We first find that the productivity of workers randomly assigned to WFH is 18% lower than those in the office. Workers who prefer WFH are substantially less productive at home than the office (27% less compared to 13% less for workers who prefer the office).

https://www.nber.org/papers/w31515

WFH Research’s latest working paper, conducted by Stanford’s Institute for Economic Policy and Research, delves deep into the question that has been looming over businesses and employees: Does working from home cause diminished productivity? The results of the study, pointing to a 10%-20% decrease in productivity for fully remote workers, have brought forth complex implications for employers, employees, and policymakers.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/benjaminlaker/2023/08/02/working-from-home-leads-to-decreased-productivity-research-suggests/

We've all heard the arguments for WFH - including that by slashing commute times it makes people work more efficiently. But a major new study has revealed that remote working does not, in fact, make you more productive.

The first scientific experiment to measure the results of the Covid-era practice found that white-collar workers who are allowed to work from home for part of the week are not more efficient. The study, published in the journal Nature, compared the two groups after six months. The researchers found no evidence that workers became more productive by working from home.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13550055/WFH-does-NOT-make-productive-major-study-reveals.html

Home workers are 13 per cent less productive than hybrid workers and are costing the economy billions, an analysis has shown. The research, conducted by Vitality, found that home workers lost the most productive days (53 days).

https://www.peoplemanagement.co.uk/article/1806750/home-workers-13-per-cent-less-productive-hybrid-workers-research-finds

Indeed, the most recent research is producing findings that are hostile to the idea that working from home is good for output. A study of newly hired Indian data-entry workers by MIT and UCLA economists this week identified a decline in productivity of 18 per cent when comparing office workers to home workers. Another found employees at a major Asian IT business were 19 per cent less productive when working at home, while a recent Stanford analysis of multiple studies reported an average drop in productivity of between 10 per cent and 20 per cent.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/08/10/wfh-productivity-work-from-home-zoom/

I find the interminable back and forth discussions about wfh / working in office quite frustrating, it really is a broken record.

• it doesn't need to be all or nothing extremes - pre-Covid people worked from home albeit predominantly in office. People have had laptops for years and had the choice. It tended to be much more limited - people didn't expect to wfh all the time. It would be Friday or Monday and the remainder of the week in office (ft staff)

• There's nothing "strange" about flexible working. Just before Covid hit, my government dept issued everyone with laptops with permission to work flexibly according to business need. "Come to the office when you want face to face interaction and wfh if it makes sense to eg if you have a complex report to write and need to get your head down" Then Covid hit and we had no option but to wfh.

• post-Covid, there are many people who are happy to return to the office for 2-3 days and balance with some wfh (eg me), Others seem to have adopted the attitude I'm not coming back to the office, ever. I've moved 100 miles away and even though my contract of employment clearly states "normal location = [name of office location] I've got a set to my jaw and resent coming back into the office more than once a month".

Advantages = ability to focus on a specific task, ability to put a wash load on (in lunch break, not during work time), reduce commute expense. Not having to be "suited and booted 5 days a week, nice to be relaxed at home, but still getting on with your job.

im personally all for office and wfh balance, why do people need to be so dogmatic about it? What ever happened to compromise / give and take? It gets you a lot farther than locking horns with your employer,

This I love a day in the office ( especially if followed by an excercise class or dinner out) for this very reason my DC are 18 & 20 but still cause chaos at home.

This is our set up, luckily DH is his own boss. He has also always done more house work than me, although I do most of the food shopping/ cooking.