To think the call back into the office is an example of the patriarchy very much alive and well?

[Yestttlo]

And anyone who thinks otherwise is either brainwashed by the patriarchy or isn’t a mother with a huge proportion of child related responsibility on her shoulders? (Or someone who is in a job where they can’t work from home so don’t want to support other women having the right to).

I have worked from home since covid. Been in the office eight times where it was necessary, for instance a company away day or face to face client meeting. I have a young dc and the call back to the office will damage my career progression due to time spent travelling which means I can’t be online longer and because I will be stretched to get household stuff done .. no I don’t mean I clean the toilets during work hours but that I can put a wash on first thing and know I can unload it at lunch, or get cooking done for the evening during my lunch break which means my evening is not chaotic and I can actually rest a little before starting in full force again the next day.

I will be fighting it to the very end. I will make my views clear. I strongly believe that forcing people into offices hugely disproportionately affects women. My work can be done anywhere. Forcing back into offices is a neon sign that the patriarchy is alive and well. Thoughts?

@BlackSheepThisYear at the end of the day (quite literally) the washing still needs doing. If I don't do it then my husband has to, and then he's also "fitting it into his day". He does the meal planning and cooking so this is how we divide tasks.
My job as a lawyer requires reading quite complex technical documents and then formulating a legal argument. I benefit hugely by stepping away from the screen and thinking about how to structure said arguments for 10 minutes every now and again. Hanging up the washing is an ideal task because it's using a different part of the brain. If I went for a walk in the garden I'd just get distracted dead heading or something.
I think someone else has summarised that the productivity of people WFH depends on the person and the role. It works so well for me and I would not be able to have the quality of life that I do if I had to go to the office every day. I do occasionally go to the office (once a week roughly) but I'm much less productive because everyone wants to chat (as do I).
I mean I could aim higher by outsourcing all my tasks I guess, but it's fine. This works for me.

My job as a lawyer requires reading quite complex technical documents and then formulating a legal argument. I benefit hugely by stepping away from the screen and thinking about how to structure said arguments for 10 minutes every now and again. Hanging up the washing is an ideal task because it's using a different part of the brain.

Similar. I work in a creative role and sometimes you just can't force the ideas. When my brain is blocked, sitting at my desk staring at my screen is a surefire way of keeping it blocked.

All the things people see as skiving on threads like this - going for a run, reading a book, doing mindless housework - are the things that will either inspire me or clear my mind. I'm pretty sure I've had all my best work ideas halfway into a 15km run in the middle of the working day.

Eh?
Very few people male or female WFH before Covid.
You are having a tantrum because you prefer it but it's just the natural consequence-it is absolutely a skivers charter and employers have cottoned onto it.
If some people need WFH due to their health then accommodations go through OH and that's fine
Sounds so unprofessional and immature
Needing WFH to put a wash on-ludicrous !

And that's great because you've found a way for it to work for you, and it does work in certain situations.
I'm more concerned about situations where WFH is meaning not taking a break in the day as you get logged on, do your work, use your break to get the wash on, use your lunch to get the dinner started or nip out to a Drs appt, pop out to get the kids, back to continue working - where's the downtime? Where's the equality?
When the partner gets home and everything's done and the WFH person is exhausted and hasn't had a break all day - that's not right.

Yes I think wfh SOME of the time is hugely beneficial for all the reasons you've outlined. I worry that it does trap women into the 'doing everything' camp though, and also I think it should be balanced.

I wouldn't want employees working from home exclusively apart from the odd client meeting once a year or whatever it is from the sound of what you've described. I think it's important to regularly be in the office together for collaboration, learning, developing and supervision - both for your own and for supervising and developing those junior to you. We have a raft of junior people in our firm who were recruited in Covid (so remotely) and frankly are just not performing at the level they should be. I think it's important that they and people more experienced to them are regularly in the office together to aid their learning and development of 'how we do things' if that makes sense. Wfh 2-3 days per week and in the office 2-3 days per week seems about right in my view.

@BlackSheepThisYear for what it's worth, we have a one year old and a three year old. We both work from home and we're both permanently exhausted. It's a temporary state whilst said one year old is so clingy and won't sleep, but still. Couldn't do this life without WFH!

But this is an issue with the relationship, not WFH. If you feel you're knackered, don't get a moment and do more than your fair share, in a good relationship then you can tell your partner that and divvy things up in a more equal way.

That's not an inevitable consequence of WFH though.

DH did just as much childcare wise, he could WFH when there was an inset day as he had greater flexibility, this is 19 years ago. The real issue is expecting women and women putting up with and doing all the domestic stuff. The patriarchy sets the expected standards and expectations but then us as individuals choose to either conform or not conform.

We brought staff back into the Office
A few people left ,I could hss as be predicted who
Productivity and profits are well up
We pay over the going rate and have no problem recruiting

This. ^

I prefer to do that kind of thing during my working day rather than after work. My paid employment is tiring; I'm no more tired having also done some housework during the day as well.

I don't do 100% of the chores, so doing my share during the working day really is no bother / hardship.

And I think there is a real risk that women who WFH end up doing all the household and childcare
DH and I have always done 50/50

I don't disagree but even if you divide the chores perfectly 50:50, there are still 50% of chores to do. And I can do at least some of my 50% in my lunch break, which works for me.
Otherwise you both return from the office absolutely knackered, and then have to start on the washing or whatever.

Exactly this!

I agree with all this (am also a lawyer so the work itself is complex and involves very concentrated periods of thinking). I'm more productive on wfh days because there are fewer distractions and I also get the benefit that I can pop the laundry on whilst I need to give my brain a rest.

But that's 'productive' in the purest sense of just getting the task at hand completed. Not taking into account all the other benefits from being in the office and the random conversations you have with colleagues which lead to sharing ideas, bouncing problems around etc, as well as the L&D (my own, and developing junior colleagues). So wfh works brilliantly for me on the days I've got a big complex task to complete, and while I'd prefer to do it most of the time I recognise there are benefits to going into the office regularly.

Also, though I say so myself, I'm efficient and not a 'skiver'. It's the type of job where you have to get the work done, regardless of how long it takes you, so if you skive off it just means you'll pay for it later. But it's also an hours culture where your bonus is correlated to the number of chargeable hours you do. I'm in the work/life balance camp so really would like to get in, get my work done (as far as possible during regular working hours and not late into the night), and get out and have a life. Others less so, so maybe on wfh days they really are just messing around not really working. 🤷‍♀️ certainly for trainees some of them are, judging by their output.

@Lemonyfuckit yes agree with there also being benefits to going into the office. But I think the key is trusting staff to make the call on when that's going to work best for them rather than demanding that they come in on certain days or for certain amounts of time

My company operates a hybrid model. We are in the office 3 days a week which to me is a perfect balance. If we are talking about the patriarchy, then I would encourage women to go into the office to “be seen” alongside the men instead of being at home putting the washing on.

That is exactly my point. It isn't the patriarchy issue that the OP says it is.

I have no option other than to WFH as we are an entirely remote (international) work force.
As a lone parent I really, really appreciate the flexibility it gives me.
I am senior and well established so professional development and 'making my place' in the company isn't an issue.
No one takes the piss.

Right. So is a domestic abuse or rape crisis support charity established by women, run by women and for women also part of the patriarchy?

I don't think your inflexibility is helping your case here...

If I wasn't at work, I wouldn't work, and I suspect there are many like me. In fact, I know there are many like me. I need the structure and lack of distraction being in the office brings. When I was WFH, I found myself doing it at stupid o'clock at night because I'd procrastinated all day. I'm afraid too many people consider WFH to be an easy shift - getting paid for doing FA, basically. You can literally buy devices that make your mouse look like it's constantly moving to fake the trackers. I'm sorry you're going to suffer, but employers do have a right to a fair day's work for a fair day's pay, the same as an employee does.

I think OP is clutching at straws, with her WFH= "patriarchy" argument.

I work in a female dominated sector and all of my colleagues on our (all female) senior leadership team have concerns about how WFH has impacted the response we recieve from the various public sector organisations we liaise with on a daily basis. Communication with these teams has become incredibly challenging since they've been wfh. It now takes days to reach anyone on the phone or get a response to an email. Calls and online meetings are frequently disrupted by barking dogs, people answering the door to deliveries, people's rubbish WiFi dropping out and the sound of children in the background. People who are contracted to work until 5/6pm don't want to attend meetings or take calls after 2.30pm anymore because even though they work FT they now think it's their right to pick their kids up from school and that they shouldn't have to pay for wraparound care.

Yet everyone on MN seems to be so much more productive working from home, many posters simply refuse to accept the possibility that the call for people to go back to the office may be in part be due to some staff taking the piss. But many of those reliant on services where the majority of staff are WFH will tell you that they have increased a significant decline in customer service, reliability and communication since WFH became the default. I have friends (male and female) who WFH and freely admit to doing the bare minimum some days because as long as they send the odd email no one can prove they are not working their contracted hours, even if they suspect it. One woman I know, who is in a management position at a University, re-decorated her entire house and transformed her garden during working hours, yet when her Bosses decided she needed to come back to the office 2 days a week she was fuming. She refused saying it would be detrimental to her wellbeing and seems to genuinely believe that she's in the right and her employer is a tyrant.

People with disabilities, including diagnosed ND or MH needs, should always be given flexibility and consideration, and WFH or hybrid working could (and should) be considered as a reasonable adjustment. But that doesn't mean that anyone who thinks it's reasonable for employers to want their staff to spend some time in the office is an ableist and misogynist.

But, with respect, why should I be punished for your lack of ability to focus?
Like giving a whole class detention for one person being naughty

I would say that most jobs which involve interacting with a computer all day are at risk from AI. That's not specifically a WFH issue, but employees who are quick to stress how little a physical presence or personal touch is needed might be exacerbating this trend.

@IcedPurple if jobs are taken by AI in the future then that's going to happen regardless of whether people go into the office or not. It might delay it but it will happen. So those people will be looking for new roles regardless