To think the call back into the office is an example of the patriarchy very much alive and well?

[Yestttlo]

And anyone who thinks otherwise is either brainwashed by the patriarchy or isn’t a mother with a huge proportion of child related responsibility on her shoulders? (Or someone who is in a job where they can’t work from home so don’t want to support other women having the right to).

I have worked from home since covid. Been in the office eight times where it was necessary, for instance a company away day or face to face client meeting. I have a young dc and the call back to the office will damage my career progression due to time spent travelling which means I can’t be online longer and because I will be stretched to get household stuff done .. no I don’t mean I clean the toilets during work hours but that I can put a wash on first thing and know I can unload it at lunch, or get cooking done for the evening during my lunch break which means my evening is not chaotic and I can actually rest a little before starting in full force again the next day.

I will be fighting it to the very end. I will make my views clear. I strongly believe that forcing people into offices hugely disproportionately affects women. My work can be done anywhere. Forcing back into offices is a neon sign that the patriarchy is alive and well. Thoughts?

it has absolutely nothing to do with "the patriarchy" and trying to argue that it does is just foolish.

Exactly, its to combat laziness and nothing else.

It is old school presenteeism and that is linked to patriarchy - the blokes in the office that could network and go for drinks in the city after work while mothers that worked had to either go part time or rush back on the commute for childcare - and you would be commuting to a busy city or business park so if you can't afford the expensive areas you have a long commute.

Also now I see male colleagues really enjoying being able to do the school run and looking after their dc when they are sick - it does have a positive impact imo.

I was lucky that dh was wfh and did the school pick up as I was able to work late etc and did advance my career - but now having hybrid is great and I have been able to advance in areas that have only been available to colleagues in london and have got to know and work with colleagues across the country which has been excellent.

Why? Because their partners expect it, and the woman does it? Why does that happen?

This is not a patricarchy issue. We fought for equality and the right to be treated exactly the same as men, and now we've got it.

Why should employers have one rule for women with children who want to wfh and another rule for everybody else?

We can't have it both ways.

I’m in danger of speaking for another poster here so I’ll answer on my own behalf.

Our office (public sector) was reconfigured to remove private offices and create huge open spaces with hot desking. I really struggled with the change, I found it very difficult to focus when people were holding conference calls a few feet away, or gathering to chat near my desk.

Some people can tune distraction out, others can’t, and that applies particularly to people who are ND.

You’re having a laugh if you think we are treated the same as men!!

And as for that poster talking about supporting the public transport system by going to the office - what planet are they on? The trains are massively overpriced, dirty, and very unreliable. We are being gaslighted by being told to use them while the public transport system we have isn’t up to scratch like it is in many other European or Asian countries.

I’ve used trains and buses my entire life but I’m learning to drive now because I’ve became increasingly sick and tired - especially now I’ve moved out of London - of struggling to get somewhere because the trains have been canceled or delayed, let alone the crazy prices.

I turned up at 1pm for an 11am meeting in london recently thanks to the train delays, despite leaving my house at 8am for what was meant to be a 2 hour journey to London.

The same day I ended up being plonked back at another train station at almost midnight and having to take a replacement bus service home the rest of the way home . The ticket cost about £120 and that’s the kind of service I got. If I hadn’t opted for an Uber I’d have been left to walk home from my train station at midnight which is not what I signed up to. I was meant to get home by 9pm.

I'm hugely supportive of wfh or hybrid contracts where possible. However, your main argument that a refusal to allow wfh being down to the patriarchy, whilst simultaneously listing a number of "woman jobs" that are made easier when not office bound, does seem ironic at best.

It really can be 50:50. Not, perhaps, with a newborn baby, and not on any particular day, or week/month/year, but overall, definitely it can be. DH and I definitely are 50:50 overall.

I think it's fair and reasonable to ask people to go back to the office, regardless of their circumstances. But they need to ensure there is enough space for everyone. Reduced office space and hot-desking make it impossible for everyone to be in at once based on my recent experience. I ended up leaving my job over it, as the difficulty in finding a desk at all, never mind one where I could work quietly and sit near my team was incredibly stressful (ND issues). WFH during Covid was a godsend, and I would have liked it to continue, but I would never have demanded that they make an exception for me.

Couldn’t agree more! Part of the push of getting people back into the office comes from politicians and businesses who are losing money from people travelling in, buying very expensive coffees on their way into work and a number companies who aren’t renting real estate anymore because there staff don’t need the space. So the private landlords are upset as they are losing money.

But men are wfh also? All being able to wfh is the leveller - and a great deal of my male colleagues are loving the balance as well.

I do think that there's a failure to recognise the very real dangers of working from home. If you can do your job 100% from home, there's a real risk that in, say, a decade's time a company will realise it can get the same job done 100% from home, but by someone working much more cheaply in India, or similar.

This has happened. Do you have virgin media? Have you ever called them? They’re based in India.

It definitely has. But, so far, mostly in IT or call centres.

The point is, I don’t think working from home or being in the office will be deciding fact on whether they transfer their business to another country to be honest.

Your choice to have kids is nothing to do with your work. I'm glad ppl are going back to the office. I know ppl who are going to the gym, hsving nice long lunches
all sorts whilst "working" total p take id you ask me.

@TheFlyingHorse you do realise the patriarchy is held up by both men and women? As demonstrated by much of this thread

People do that while in the office too! I know loads of people who go out for extended lunches while in the office and they’re just drinking and having fun. some people are just more responsible than others. It doesn’t matter if they’re in the office or working from home some people will always take the piss.

I agree here - in fact issues with having staff concentrated in some countries was highlighted during covid, for example when India closed down they did so fast and it impacted operations.

My dh already wfh full time pre covid and works with colleagues across the globe .

Mine too. Clothes washing done and hung up, empty and fills dishwasher as he goes, takes the dog out for a wander at lunchtime if he has the time...might even run the vacuum around if he's on a training thing that doesn't require much more than listening to a trainer through noise-cancelling headphones.

Agreed. DH's engineering company has all its detailing of drawings now done by a company out in India. It was cheaper to fly out a load of people to the uk, give them some additional training, and now send all drawings out to them for detailing, than employing people in the UK. Those are skilled jobs, not just call centre advisers (no criticism, that's my current role!). Those were jobs that in the past have allowed people to work up through the company.

Sorry, but you're being ridiculous. Neither DP nor I can work from home under any circumstances, and we manage to share out our household chores fairly, and we don't live in a shit hole. .