To think the call back into the office is an example of the patriarchy very much alive and well?

[Yestttlo]

And anyone who thinks otherwise is either brainwashed by the patriarchy or isn’t a mother with a huge proportion of child related responsibility on her shoulders? (Or someone who is in a job where they can’t work from home so don’t want to support other women having the right to).

I have worked from home since covid. Been in the office eight times where it was necessary, for instance a company away day or face to face client meeting. I have a young dc and the call back to the office will damage my career progression due to time spent travelling which means I can’t be online longer and because I will be stretched to get household stuff done .. no I don’t mean I clean the toilets during work hours but that I can put a wash on first thing and know I can unload it at lunch, or get cooking done for the evening during my lunch break which means my evening is not chaotic and I can actually rest a little before starting in full force again the next day.

I will be fighting it to the very end. I will make my views clear. I strongly believe that forcing people into offices hugely disproportionately affects women. My work can be done anywhere. Forcing back into offices is a neon sign that the patriarchy is alive and well. Thoughts?

But if WFH becomes less common in general, it becomes less likely to be offered as an option. A reasonable adjustment, often easily put in place for such "situations" by higher powers, become something highly unusual; and eventually something which would never be offered. People like this lady and her family would miss out. And companies would miss out on her talent, skills, and perspective. Becoming less diverse in the process.

No. It has only been since Covid that many days WFH were an option, in most jobs. Previously most people (male and female) had to show up at a workplace, even if it meant a commute.

I think hybrid working is in theory a good idea but noone should imagine it has actually been A Thing for most people until very recently.

I’ll disprove your theory in two words:

MOUSE JIGGLER

Before COVID there were laws in place where employees could request flexible working so it has been an option for many.

My point is we have never really had choice which is what we should be fighting for in my opinion, in fact it feels to me, in many respects we have less choice as people can’t afford to be stay at home parents etc..

That’s something to take up with your spouse not your employer.

Not necessarily. If you're part of a team, it may be that you all need to work the same hours. I manage a team - if I review their work at 8pm when they've all logged off, how would I give feedback?

Yes there is plenty of work that can be flexible - but just dismissing 9-5 is too easy to dismantle. What works for you may not work for a new starter for example.

All we are doing is reverting to the model that best suits married able bodied men in senior positions.

I’m 50s now and DC is a teenager. I’ve been working in a hybrid pattern for years (decades). DH travels overseas for work a lot but has always played an equal part on childcare and domestic stuff when he is here.
When DC was young we paid for wraparound childcare. Yes it was expensive but both of our employers appreciated the fact that during regular working hours we were fully committed to working, be that from home or in the office. That trust and open relationship meant that if there was a problem either one of could openly say ‘DC is unwell’ or ‘it’s sports day next week’ and our employers would generally say no problem do what you need to.
Unfortunately since Covid, people have started to play the system. I manage a team and there are a number of people who despite being employed to work 9-5 - when our clients need us - disappear offline at 2.50pm. Coming back online at 9pm is no good. I’m a woman, a mother, a daughter and a wife but I’m also a senior manager in a company. You need to either pay for childcare or leave your job. After all, you’ve said you don’t need to work. This is nothing to do with the patriarchy

If your DS has a particular skill and experience that are highly sought after then that won't be an issue.

If he doesn't have that mix then he will likely have to look for some sort of self employed role.

Are you really saying (sorry, I am not really aware of the range of mental health conditions) that your DS cannot cope being in contact with other people during a normal working day?

@nah1974 its astonishing you can write the post you have written and conclude it with it has ‘nothing to do with the patriarchy.’ They’re still doing a number on us that’s for sure.

Husband does it a few days a week and I do it a few days a week. Just depends who notices the basket is getting full.

Completely disagree - and I'm a woman, with young children, in a role that technically could be done 100% wfh. I was reluctant to go back to the office too, but 5 years after the event and only just now at this stage is in my view frankly ridiculous.

Simply - there is nothing any of us can say to make you appreciate and understand it, as you haven't even tried the other side of going back to the office after Covid yet and sound really ignorant of how out of date you are and the impact it is proving to have for those still with this view. If and when you do go back to the office, 12 months later come back to this post, I think there would be a strong chance you may think differently.

Sorry but I have no patience for people moaning about this, posters that get worked up about this so many years after Covid are oblivious to how much of society is not still working in that way or what they are missing out on. Either get on with it and take the benefits of a hybrid role (assuming this isn't going to be full time back in office) or leave and find a fully remote one.

Yanbu. The call back to the office impacts women, careers and people with disabilities.

I believe people are productive WFH. It has been my experience for over 29 years in various employment.

It is a fact that women are more likely to be responsible for childcare and household duties. Also for additional caring responsibilities for elderly parents. This is the experience of most women in my friend group, even though some of them are the main wage earner.

My partner is just that in every respect. Looking after our family and elderly parents on top of full time work is extremely difficult. A few of my friends are planning to reduce their hours which will impact their pension.

Cos you're there and not sidetracked by washing, cleaning, cooking etc. WFH was great while it lasted but people took the piss.

The labour government is giving disability benefits a huge do over. The rationale being that disabled people can work from home.

It's going to get messy.

Businesses that want to do away with WFH are going to have to stop taking the piss and start paying salaries that reflect the costs involved for office-based employees - skyhigh commuterville housing prices, extortionate train tickets, extra childcare costs etc. £25k for a central London based role just isn't going to cut it anymore. I'm sure they've factored that in though, esp in the public sector.

I think she is saying that, yes. He may suffer from sensory overload in a very busy environment, but cope very well in a calmer one.

Sounds like a return to workhouses in a modern guise.

Which is where WFH and AI combined is actually heading.

Regardless of gender, job roles etc, I urge everyone to get back into the business environment as soon as you can. Be there and so be part of that transition. Don't be an office stranger.

Why does wfh mainly benefit women? I don't get that stance on it at all? Wfh roles started out being mainly men.

Your views are very influenced by your personal family set up.

Did you have children during/since covid and not before? And have then only experienced family life in this set up, if so isn't it more that you have a set up that is depended on you being wfh.

That's you not all working women or mainly working women.

In my work and friend circles, flexible working has resulted in nearly all the men having a hybrid set up or non-working days - which they use for childcare and house stuff.

My experience (from my job) is that wfh and the ability to wfh has chained some women back to the house and is holding their careers back, for others having the ability to do 1 or 2 days wfh is enabling them to develop their careers in a stronger way with younger children/families, due to the extra flexibility.

The answer to this, though, is that your dh should do 50-50 regardless of whether he's unable to wfh. Not that you should be able to wfh to pick up the slack "created" by your dh being unable to wfh.

And generally, men should do 50-50 in the house and with their children. Again, nothing to do with wfh.
Plenty of couples manage to do this with and without children and whether one or both are hybrid or wfh.

If you have to wfh in order to do more than 50% of what needs doing in your household and family, that says more about your domestic arrangements than it does about your employer.

Love your idealistic view that men should do 50-50 what about all the single parents out there!!

Thank you for this. And I do totally understand this from a personal point of view.

I do not cope at all well in a "busy" environment and much prefer a calmer one. In fact, many years ago, I gave up a job with "Egg Banking" for exactly this reason.

But I would also suggest that this must be a pretty extreme reaction if he cannot cope with normal situations that people like this (including myself here) end up in.

For example, my background is very much in the area of data analysis and I have worked for a number of large banks and similar companies.

The environment was always far from "busy" and quite often "calmer"; indeed very quiet, as most people were concentrating on their work and didn't welcome distractions.

The difference from when you went from there to eg the marketing department was very striking and obvious indeed.

"Employers are the patriarchy" erm not in the voluntary sector where I work. The workforce is predominantly female and the charity is work for is female led, and my last charity was too.

I'm also married to a man who shares responsibility for household chores. If yours doesn't that's your problem, not you employers.

I don’t know what I’m missing, but is there a big call back into the office?
Im public sector and nothing here (although I go on once a week as I choose to), but I haven’t heard nothing from my friends who work from home/hybrid, about this.

I presume @VivX is talking about households where there are 2 parents/carers.