Do you expect other women to agree with you when you talk about the plight of women ?

[amijust]

And what do you think about the ones that just stay silent ? Every time it comes up ?

Just wondering, as I've noticed someone in my life is always entirely silent when these convos come up.

How would you feel about someone like that ?

A couple of examples that have come up :

• mental load being all on the woman a lot.

• housework being a woman's problem a lot to the time.

• at work, taking maternity leave and having kids often hurts a woman's career.

• working from home, isn't good for women as a whole because it means a lot to women pick up even more housework and tend to work from home more to ferry kids around, this in turn hurts their careers etc.

• being the default parent.

• workplaces not being set up for parents in general.

• women's health problems being largely ignored. Women being told to suck up extreme period pain for example.

• when women show emotion, being branded as hysterical etc etc

These are just some conversations that have come up around another woman I know ( no kids yet ). Other women have agreed / disagreed or engaged on the topics. This person stays entirely silent.

Honestly not RTFT so sure it’s come up; maybe she’s in an abusive relationship and the things that you are talking about sound like a nice alternative to abuse.
Or maybe those things just don’t apply to her, not all women experience the points you’ve mentioned.

OP, how often is this coming up? This would be so wearing to listen to, over and over again.

Maybe she’s someone who thinks, if something isn’t working, change it. Not whine about it.

’Plight’ is very strong language.

It’s about choices and what kind of partner you choose to have children with.

I'd be very bored by these topics of conversation, none of which I can relate to even though I'm a full time working mother, and I might engage at first (probably to disagree with you but then I'm quite outspoken) but after a while I'd just switch off and not respond when these topics come up, especially if it's a situation such as work colleague/random relative/friend of friend etc where there is no upside in getting into an argument and you're not someone I have to deal with every day.

I have a partner and I am a working mother, and none of your points apply to me so if I were in the company of people going on about these things I wouldn't have anything to add either. I certainly wouldn't partake in agreeing, as it's not my personal experience, and equally I wouldn't be so smug as to vocalise that I don't have these particular problems. I don't think it's fair of you to expect her to contribute to these conversations, it's completely her choice!

👏

But surely you can understand somewhere that some women struggle, even if you don't and it's common decency to just nod along sometimes isn't it. Or show some sort of empathy. But obviously not for anyone on here then.

I totally understand that some women struggle, most of my career has been spent supporting women who struggle for whom I have huge empathy. I can’t really find too much empathy for someone detailing every single part of family life as a “woman’s plight” while doing nothing to change the situation they either chosen or allowed to perpetuate.

I have struggles in my own life, because I’m human and I’ve made life choices that make day to day life more complicated - I don’t need to frame that as a woman’s plight like some helpless maiden. If you don’t like your life, change it. Stop expecting everyone to agree with you and your “plight”.

I don't think I would be able to keep quiet about many of the examples you've given and we would probably end up having quite a robust exchange of views 😆😆

There is one particular person that I just shut down around as they are very vocal about their very informed opinions and frankly I don’t feel that there is space to explore a topic without sounding idiotic, uninformed or stupid. I am uninformed on some of the topics but their conversations aren’t a good space to learn in. Perhaps this person feels that?

I am a mother and, except for four months maternity leave with each of my two children - have worked full-time all my adult life. I have had a successful career rising to a senior management level in my early thirties.

Never have I felt disadvantaged being a woman and do not recognise the kind of woe-is-me a lot of women indulge in.

If OP started banging on about the things she lists in her post in my company, ignoring it is probably the best response she could expect from me.

Act like a downtrodden victim and you will be treated like one. Your failures are not necessarily caused by being female.

Is it only when you talk about this topic that she doesn't engage or is this a general thing?

Maybe she's shy or doesn't like speaking up in a group situation.

Are you all close friends in the group?

There could be any number of reasons why she doesn't engage.

How do you respond and react to people who disagree with you ?. Perhaps that is why she stays silent.

I'd assume that for whatever reason she doesn't want to talk about it.

If your partner is useless, why not leave, or have a conversation with him about contributing more, rather than repeatedly whinging about your plight to someone who's clearly not interested?

She may find this line of discussion boring.

"It's not that hard to just be a decent person."

See this I have a problem with.. Clearly, you have a strong opinion, maybe she does not want to say, " i dont agree that woman have it harder" because then you'll think/say she is not a decent person! (basically for having a different opinion to you.

Oftentimes when someone says something I disagree with and there is no point in raising it and/or the person will be upset ( think I'm not a decent person), I'll just say nothing.

For example, I think elective c-sections are overused and that c-sections aren't great for mom and baby (obviously it is the best option in some situations)
So if I'm at Amy's house after she just had her baby and she declares to all of us.
" Oh we opted for a c-sections as it was easier to plan for when my DM would arrive and besides, we should be able to choose how we give birth"
Do you know what I do? I shut up.. Because it will hardly serve a purpose to try and convince her that research shows xyz and that there is significant risk and point out all the negatives about c-sections. She's done it, baby is here. But I also do not agree with just willy nilly picking a csections and therefore do not want to agree with her statement.

Similarly I don't think it is a bad thing that woman are so called disatvantaged by being on mat leave. Actually I don't think they are being disadvantaged at all.
I think it would be unfair if I were on the same step in the corporate ladder as John when he worked 10 full years and I had 3 years off for mat leave. I've worked for 7 years and John worked for 10, therefore it makes sense for John to be promoted before me.
And yes that means that on average stats show men are higher paid or on a better position etc but I would find it very unfair that I got promoted same time as JOhn staright after I returned from leave after I was not working in my field for 14 months.
Yes having children therefore affects women more than men, but I get the privilege of carrying and sustaining life. ANd if you don't want that priviledge, then don't take it, but don't complain that you are now worse off because of mat leave. You can't have your cake and eat it. Want to be treated same as men? Work their hours then.
So that is what I feel. That would be my thoughts. But I would shut up about it, because clearly if I said it you'd say "i'm not a decent person'.
So I guess your friends instinct is correct

What I think is it gets really tiresome listening to people making themselves a victim all the time, which is often what it boils down to.

If you're doing more of the housework, childcare, mental load etc then that's a result of choices you've made and it's in nobody else's power to change it.

Wider reaching issues such as how maternity leave can damage career prospects deserve to be viewed through a different lens, sure. But even then, it's a result of choices you make because the father can share the leave but the reality is that most mothers want to take it.

The health thing is very valid, sure.

This!!!

If I chimed in with

"Sorry that you lot have useless, ineffective husbands who don't know their arse from their elbow and see raising a child / housework / admin as a woman's job (more fool you for procreating with them) but my DH is amazing. He cooks us dinner every night, never lets me wash up afterwards, does all the running round after DC, sorts the dogs out, is currently doing renovations to our house at weekends, all whilst working a physically demanding full time job and he never once complains about anything"

I would sound smug.

So yeah, I would keep my mouth shut too as I evidently have nothing to offer the "women's plight".

Boredom is probably the main reason, especially if it’s a repetitive theme when you get together. I’d find that boring and would disengage.

Sometimes, an experience not lived is not an experience that a woman has an opinion on? But as you're going through said experiences you certainly develop one. I do think women are still labelled not just by men but women also for caring about these things. There is often an undercurrent of misogyny, ageist misogyny and sexism that runs through our culture still. Just the things I've heard this year completely astound me, along with the snowflake (any sex) views about the importance of family, they're derisory, many parent hating unless cash is being discussed, "parents should support their kids (even if they're an adult) and then they should F__k off back into the wood work" , kind of thing.

So it's no surprise that there are people out there who don't want to speak up. It's quite a volatile area. There are islands of positive change. But largely yes, everything is still the same as it was forty years ago on one level. I'm not sure I have an answer either but I welcome the debate that leads to change.

It's the serial moaning that I find fruitless and angst making. If I had a company, all that's fair and equitable would be part of the companies ethos for both sexes. My friends have enjoyed this for years in Europe, it's time we modernised our selves. I'd also like to see women not attack or pressure other women unfairly. That really gets my goat. Its so uneccessary and is deleterious to real progress...I wouldn't take it out on your friend, I can understand why she has her umbrella up.

Christ, why is this so important to you?

This. Also, you keep mentioning "the group" @amijust . Is this a group of friends? Or an actual group who get together to whinge about hard done to women are and slag men off? How miserable and, as @KrisAkabusi says, repetitive.

Oh and no, I have never been branded hysterical by anyone - male or female.

The thing is, I refuse to feel like a victim as a woman. I'm well aware of the patriarchy and I'm well aware of the difficulties some women face. However, I enjoy being a woman. I would much rather be a woman than a man. I think I'd find it more difficult to be a man, given the pressures on men to support the family, always be strong, not show emotions etc. I feel as a woman I can be me. Yes, I took time off work when my children were small and I suppose for several years I was the default parent, bearing the mental load. However, I wanted to do this and I enjoyed it. I don't feel like a victim because of it. I'm so grateful I was able to, thanks to DH working hard and supporting us all. Yes, I've had some unpleasant encounters with men in my life, but the vast majority of men I've known have been great.
I imagine if I was living in a different part of the world my life would be more shit because I'm a woman, but honestly, truthfully, I've had a brilliant life as a woman and wouldn't change a thing.
If you were complaining about being a woman to me, I'd either zone out or advise you to change your life.