Grandad creepy vibes advice please

[Jellybeans20]

hey mums, I've decided to limit contact with the biological grandfather of my LO. I will explain what happened below. I need advice on how to navigate this as we will be seeing grandmother (whom he lives with) a lot. But she will come to us and she doesn't defend his behaviour.
I made it pretty clear since LO was born that we are teaching consent. Grandad does a lot of the forced hugging and kisses, which is counterproductive to how we try to raise our little ones. LO is early mid primary school aged. Last year grandad was relatively ok but still says inappropriate things. He is always eager to push a religious element because the kids are of mixed faith and race background and there's a bit of religious competition and arrogance going on there. Kids call me mummy and he always tries to push a word in his language for the word mummy which is annoying because there's attitude when he does it. The other day, I was dropping grandma off and the grandad sticks his head in the car and kisses LO 3 times on the cheek in the same spot (it was not 3 quick pecks) and asked "did you like it?" which gave me the worst feeling ever. I quickly said "that's a very creepy question to ask". I really didn't like it. It has continued to bother me. It sounds like a grooming question to me. I unpacked it with LO and we have decided to put a double boundary there. Does anyone else think that was a weird question? This grandad has some single dad friends and one of the old men asked his daughter out when she turned 19 or something. He is still friends with that man and the bothers me because that man would have seen his daughter at the age of 10.... I understand the grandad is old and could one day pass but I feel strongly about avoiding him in the context of the kids. I would love to know if you other mums see it the way I see it and what would you do in my position?

He sounds creepy as fuck.

I don't think you sound paranoid at all.

Abuse is so common. There are a lot of naive posters on this thread.

An adult wouldn't endure unwanted kisses im sure. People aren't entitled to hug and kiss young people just because they're related, and/or young.

@FictionalCharacter Sorry, I do tend to speak mildly on mumsnet. I am also trying to not giveaway too many details that may identify us as a family. I have already decided that there won't be contact between the grandfather and the children. I am acting protectively in this regard.
I have good reasons for not approaching my husband at this time. I don't want to elaborate but stress can kill.
@BoudiccasBangles thank you for being honest about the effects. I sense I'll feel guilty for a human's experience of not havign that familial connection in old age but I won't regret protecting the kids and their boundaries. Family have the opportunity to really value you and teach you your voice and consent matter but sometimes you get these characters that put the wrong programs in your mind. It's more important for me that the kids aren't exposed to harm and also don't feel "obliged".
@Sardines57 true that it makes you more vigilant with your own. happy for you that you found a good partner.
@SerafinasGoose thank you. very well put. when i had no kids, i just thought what a wonderful force of good out there. yes i noticed things like the arrogance and strange cult he was following but when I had kids, the whole thing changed.
@Mnaamn it's very sad but i too recall having a similar chat with my friends at that age and we came to know of how each one had been targeted. teachers abusing their power too.

He's saying did she like it so that she feels intimidated into saying yes and he can turn around to you and say "well there you go". Sounds manipulative af.

some cross posts while i was trying.
Re-reading, definitely have contact at your house w/o him. i think he's trying to see what he can get away with unchallenged. some excellent insight from other posters.

Kissing a grandchild three times on the cheek doesn’t make someone a paedophile. I hate it when this word is bandied around so casually.

Conversely, it is not 'bandied around' nearly casually enough. As a societal ill, child sexual abuse is pervasive. Far too many victims are not believed, as society is competely structured around preserving the interests of men. Women and children are collateral. Check the statistics if in doubt - and even these don't account for how much of this abuse goes unreported.

I've not seen explicit suggestions upthread that Grandad must definitely be a paedophile - merely that this is a risk not worth taking and his lack of boundaries presents a serious safeguarding concern.

As they do. It is not okay to override a child's bodily consent. He's been told and shown it isn't appreciated yet he continues to force his 'wants'. That on its own is enough.

@grooveraidiator

@ButternutBelle thank you and i do appreciate your view. I do think that word is used loosely. If it is untrue and the person is identifiable well that's defamation. It comes down to the crossed boundaries and there's a pattern of behaviour that has caused concern. Would you call this episode grooming? It is a culture where he expects his wife to pick up what;s in front of him and give it to him. He doesn't let her have a voice.
@Cosmosforbreakfast thank you for the support. i can't get that question out of my mind.
@PennyApril54 yes he definitely said it regarding the kiss and i thought what on earth am i actually hearing right now. i responded and called it creepy but I'm still very weirded out by the whole thing

@FictionalCharacter thank you so much. you've really understood the key points and violations in this matter. the child is also an 8 year old male. he and most of his friends are really into the whole fist bump thing i rarely see them hug anyone.

@Glitter0 i'm so sorry to hear that. thank you for your advice

I grew up in a large extended family who often had get togethers. Us kids were constantly being told to kiss various people and go sit on so and so's lap. It was horrible. I had a half sister who's grandpa was "such a sweet old man". At around 12 years old I was shamed to sit on his lap, whereupon he was surreptitiously feeling me up. I remember looking at him and he whispered "there's no harm in it".
Another Auntie used to do the hand up the back and pinch just hard enough to hurt but not crying out.
I hundred per cent would not have been believed and more than likely would have been castigated for saying such a wicked thing about dear old Bill.

@Ladybyrd i didn't think of that but good point. i just thought, this is disgusting and sounds like grooming.
@grooveraidiator i think so too. we have always been asked for a sleepover. i have never allowed it. but like 2 years ago he has casually mentioned it to LO. that's also weird. his other grandkids were over before xmas and they actually do sleepovers. the grandson called his mum crying saying he wanted to go home.
thank you everyone for the advice. I was avoiding the grandad that day. It was unfortunate he came to the car when i dropped grandma off. I will take on board the recommendation to have grandma come to our place herself and avoid these scenarios where I need to drop off. If i

This.

where is your anger? Who cares what his motivations are?

fwiw I think this guy is a total perv. I felt slightly unwell reading it and I wouldn’t be within a country mile of him if I could help it.

• I would not be visiting the house again.
• he would not be welcome in mine.
• I would never give grandma any unsupervised access.
• at any family events I’d be operating the “pilot system” where you or your husband is exclusively responsible for monitoring your children and you verbal “hand over” to one and other to ensure there is ALWAYS someone watching them.

To be honest, I think you'll have received mostly the right advice here, but I want to encourage you as a parent to trust in your own gut instinct. It is absolutely not a requirement to get anyone else's permission to protect your child.

But as you have asked, I would be doing the same as you.
I faced CSA from a very early age, and now I am quite rigid with rules of how people talk and act around my kids.
In fact, I even had to have a word with my sons grandfather who isn't very smart, and has quite advanced alzheimers but in my heart I didn't think was trying to cause harm in the things he used to say to my son. Credit to him, those comments did stop when I explained that they made me feel uncomfortable and that his comments were opening the doorway for inappropriate comments being accepted coming from bad people.

It sounds like you've had those conversations, and they've fallen on deaf ears, so now you have to, to keep your DD safe.

@Jellybeans20 No, I think he's waltzing all over your boundaries and being really rude about it. But you know what you feel, and why, and I doubt that's something you can get across here in a couple of posts. I am a great believer in going with your instincts.

I always say 'listen to your gut feelings'. If something feels off, then it probably is. I have an Uncle (by marriage), who has always had the habit of invading personal space. He's always made me feel uncomfortable, and I'm not the only one in the extended family who feels this way either (including my own Mum). When I was around 15, he visited my family home, along with my Aunt (my Dad's sister). I was about to go out the front door (everyone else had gone into the conservatory) and he blocked the way. Stood there, leering at my boobs (I have always been big busted) and said 'Oh haven't you changed, I didn't recognise you'. I didn't answer but barged passed him. I told my parents, and both made sure I was never ever left in a room with him on my own. I'm 50 now, and he still makes my skin crawl. Sadly, he treats my Aunt dreadfully, controlling, shouts etc - she won't hear a bad word against him. My gut feeling was correct, even though I was a child.

So he treats his wife badly (such that his own son can't bear to be in the same room/building).

He disregards requests from his DIL re his GD.

He doesn't care about making his GD uncomfortable & is trying to oush her to say it's OK.

He certainly seems to hate females!

To be honest, I think you'll have received mostly the right advice here, but I want to encourage you as a parent to trust in your own gut instinct. It is absolutely not a requirement to get anyone else's permission to protect your child.

@Yesiknowdear agree 100% - if it feels wrong to OP then that is all that matters.

The way I look at it is he's had the boundary explained to him.

If he's still breaking the boundary then he's made his choice.

I somehow doubt that OP's husband being unable to bear being in the same room as his father has anything to do with his father's treatment of his mother .

OP has made only a few guarded comments about her husband, but taken together I think they could very much point towards her husband having been a victim of CSA.

In particular: "he doesnt want the kids to see any of their grandparents in general" and "he would be pro no contact". His own grandfather "pinched [a different] 17 year old grandson in a private part after a religious gathering". His grandmother "was very physically affectionate. She'd rub people's back from under the shirt". His father is who we are discussing, and his mother - did she fail to protect him?

@Jellybeans20 you have said "I have good reasons for not approaching my husband at this time. I don't want to elaborate but stress can kill." I wonder if going NC with his father might help some of his stress? Regardless, I think it may be in your husband's best interests to get some help. Counselling. He doesn't sound as if he's in a good place.

And you are absolutely right to ensure your FIL has zero access to your children. ((hug))

I had a creepy uncle who did fondle my breasts. He came into the room where I was sleeping one night and felt me up. I tried to tell my mum but she dismissed me and I didn't try again. It feels horrible when your mum fails to protect you. You are doing brilliantly OP

There seems to be two types of kissy gropey old men. I think the majority fall into the group where it stops at that and being "yukky" rather than illegal.

However, children need protecting from both as they remember yukky behaviour and it will play on their minds and they will fear every visit and they have no control over it because they are little people. They need an advocate.

Then there's the second type and we cannot be sure they are that until its, sadly, too late.

i always think to myself , would I like that?

eg world I like a man kissing me 3x on my cheek ? No

You are doing the right thing.

How awful, sorry you went through that.

It makes me so angry these forced kisses and forced sitting on laps.

I would never in a million years force a child to sit on my lap or kiss me it is revolting. These people who do it are revolting.