Grandad creepy vibes advice please

[Jellybeans20]

hey mums, I've decided to limit contact with the biological grandfather of my LO. I will explain what happened below. I need advice on how to navigate this as we will be seeing grandmother (whom he lives with) a lot. But she will come to us and she doesn't defend his behaviour.
I made it pretty clear since LO was born that we are teaching consent. Grandad does a lot of the forced hugging and kisses, which is counterproductive to how we try to raise our little ones. LO is early mid primary school aged. Last year grandad was relatively ok but still says inappropriate things. He is always eager to push a religious element because the kids are of mixed faith and race background and there's a bit of religious competition and arrogance going on there. Kids call me mummy and he always tries to push a word in his language for the word mummy which is annoying because there's attitude when he does it. The other day, I was dropping grandma off and the grandad sticks his head in the car and kisses LO 3 times on the cheek in the same spot (it was not 3 quick pecks) and asked "did you like it?" which gave me the worst feeling ever. I quickly said "that's a very creepy question to ask". I really didn't like it. It has continued to bother me. It sounds like a grooming question to me. I unpacked it with LO and we have decided to put a double boundary there. Does anyone else think that was a weird question? This grandad has some single dad friends and one of the old men asked his daughter out when she turned 19 or something. He is still friends with that man and the bothers me because that man would have seen his daughter at the age of 10.... I understand the grandad is old and could one day pass but I feel strongly about avoiding him in the context of the kids. I would love to know if you other mums see it the way I see it and what would you do in my position?

Definitely trust your gut instinct.

We can all sit here and analyse the details of what you said here, and whether or not we think it sounds creepy to us (bearing in mind every person who reads this will process it through their own lens, and apply their own biases).

But the important thing is, your gut instinct is telling you there's something wrong, and that instinct is there for a reason.

Furthermore, your

Absolutely. This is NOT just normal affection, NOT AT ALL. He's saying "look mum, I can do whatever I want and I know the child won't say no".

@Jellybeans20 This gets worse and worse the more you post. History of SA in the family. Loads of boundary crossing. A man reminiscent of Savile, building an image of a saintly charity worker in areas that just happen to provide access to children. Your husband loathes him so much he can't be in the same room. You have experienced SA yourself. Yet I am not seeing utter disgust and anger from you and a fierce resolve to keep this man away at all times and at any cost. Your language is mild and you seem fixated on understanding why he does it, which is irrelevant. You're not his analyst, you're your child's protector and advocate.

You MUST tell your husband so that you can protect your child together. She's his child too and it isn't right to keep this from him. If you're not telling him for fear of him making a fuss with the family, frankly you're putting the (abusive) adults' feelings above your child's safety and comfort, like my parents did. And I'll say again, I hate them for it, and your child could feel the same about you when she's older if you don't act. She TOLD you she didn't like it.

@Jellybeans20 my DF was also a creep with women and made me feel uncomfortable on occasion. I don’t regret it at all. I felt sorry for him but he had the opportunity to stick to the boundaries we set. It was hard when he died as I felt guilty for a while, but a year on I have no doubts that we did the right thing. Your children can’t protect themselves, they need you to act for them.

@Jellybeans20 thank you, I am very happily married to a lovely man. It does make you extra vigilant with your children though. Nothing wrong with that. My friends would let their children go to the loo in a shopping mall unaccompanied for example whereas I would always go with mine and keep an eye out.

I think your DH is right!! foot down and go NC if needed

No, forced contact against someone's wishes not 'normal', and consent does not get to be overriden because the person is a child. It sends precisely the wrong message about bodily autonomy and consent. This would be a significant problem whether the grandfather is a would-be paedophile or not. And frankly, 'did you like it' (when presumably he knew they didn't) has red flags all over it.

It's very unhelpful to coax women into ignoring the warning signals they receive. The risks vs. benefits equation here is a no-brainer. If OP is wrong to exercise this degree of caution, it will piss him off. Which frankly, given his choice to behave as though the stated boundaries don't even exist, is the sort of small stuff I wouldn't be sweating. If she's right then the potential consequences for the DC don't bear thinking about.

CSA is sadly far too prevalent. Society is far too inclined to jump to the immediate conclusion that women are being neurotic, as opposed to men falling into an all-too-common pattern of abuse. Women have these instincts for a reason - largely because we and are children are the ones who suffer as a result of both these issues.

Always, always trust them.

She's five! You have to speak on her behalf, not watch and feel awkward and plan to encourage HER to say no.

"She doesn't want to Fred, leave her alone and stop asking".
If he protests: "I said NO Fred, stop this".
If he still persists: leave.

It's wrong to give a 5 year old the responsibility of protecting herself. That's what parents are for.

@FictionalCharacter I was absolutely astounded 35 years ago at very drunken gitls night in my friends flat when after a shit load of wine one friend was very upset having been home for Christmas and had seen her creepy bachelor uncle who repeatedly sexually assaulted her.
She had never said a word to her parents.
Turns out that every single young woman, all mid 20's had one or more experiences of being assaulted by a family member, relative, neighbour, sports coaches etc.

I could not believe what I was hearing. I too had an old bachelor farmer tried to touch me but fortunately I got away from him...never told anyone about it either, but we knew never to go near his fields again.

Opportunistic abuse of children was endemic when I was young, I now believe.

I have always been very firmly protective of my children when they were young.

I believe these predators often target families.

The children of parents whom have never experienced any hint of this were very vulnerable as 50 years ago they simply couldn't imagine anything so vile.

I am so sorry for what you endured @FictionalCharacter .

@EarthSight You're not at all wrong. I have many times noticed him crossing a boundary and giving me a look. He doesn't like the kids calling me mummy because he wants them to use his language. He wants them to subscribe to his religion and not our chosen path. So yes it is deliberate.
@FictionalCharacter
@WishinAndHopin grandma accompanies some visits. I dont suspect his charity work. People do get misused and exploited in that part of the world though. having said that, he did follow a spiritual leader that turned out to have non disclosure agreements with his followers that the spiritual leader sexually abused (various age groups allegedly). he is very comfortable with the english language.
@MissDoubleU @Richard1985 in a different context, DH does say he is protecting his mental health by not engaging. The grandad has a temper towards the grandma. My kids haven't seen him mistreat her but I have separately seen him talk harshly to her.
@downhere yeah you're right if she doesnt want to, she shouldn't have to sit on his lap.

Kissing a grandchild three times on the cheek doesn’t make someone a paedophile. I hate it when this word is bandied around so casually.

Yes, the behaviour is inappropriate because the mum has asked him not to do it. Maybe it’s cultural, perhaps there is some kind of power play at work, where a woman’s views are not respected. We can’t see the full picture.

Right?! I hope OP is taking this on board. If the child's father decides to blow up, rock the boat and piss off the family's charity-supporting pillar of the community saint, that's his right and he'd be acting correctly. I suspect there's a disturbing reason why he walks out of the house when GF walks in.

@Mnaamn Yes absolutely, it's endemic and many people are blissfully unaware, believing it's thankfully rare. Just look at some of the replies on this very thread dismissing what's happening. And the effects on victims are horrendous and lasting.

you're a fantastic mum for being so sharp and strong. i'd keep my children very much at arm's length from your dad. the prolonged face kiss is not what i'd feel happy with for my children. he may be innocent but if so, he needs to read the room better. encourage and facilitate contact at your house with your mum.

in my own home as a 7 year old or so, a man who was a more acquaintance than friend of my parents visited our home, encouraged my 5 year old sibling, focused on them as they were youngest and cuddled them up in his lap. his hand was carefully and covertly moving to a highly inappropriate pants covered place where it had absolutely no business being. i was shocked. i stared until he noticed, shook my head and he stopped immediately.

i can't remember if i told my parents but we never saw him again.

About 8 years ago, i read he'd been convicted for historical child sexual abuse offences, had served his sentence and then arrested again as he tried to groom a single parent and her child.

as a parent, always be vigilant.

My point still stands. My grandmother used to make me uncomfortable with forced kisses and hugs. No doubt she felt she was being grandmotherly, I didn't like it.
I'm not downplaying the situation - I'm saying there's more than one interpretation one that could be applied to this situation.

When he asked 'did you like it?' was he definitely referring to the kissing? If so, that is very odd. I can see why you are concerned. He should be respectful of the way you want to raise your children regardless of his own thoughts on the matter.

'You're being paranoid'
'You're being ridiculous'
'It's normal for grandparents to hug and kiss their grandchildren'

The above is how abusers get away with their behaviour. Your 'mum alert' has gone off OP, trust it. Don't let anyone put doubt in your head. Keep your boundaries firmly in place. Keep your child away from this man altogether if you want. Your child comes first and must be protected at all costs. 'Did you like it?', urrrgh, that actually made me feel sick.

This, vehemently.

THE CHILD SAID HE MAKES HER UNCOMFORTABLE
HE CROSSES MANY OTHER BOUNDARIES
THE MOTHER ASKED HIM NOT TO
HE STILL DOES IT, AND SMIRKS ABOUT IT, SHOWING THAT IT'S DELIBERATE

No other context is needed unless you're determined to excuse incorrect behaviour.

He didn't just kiss her cheek, did he? He did it in a certain unusual way and said something abnormal afterwards. Are you really so lacking in perceptiveness that you can't see this isn't a normal situation of a grandparent giving a kiss goodbye or something? Because it really, really isn't. Would you kiss an unwilling child on the cheek three times, slowly, and then ask if they liked it?

People are comparing his behaviour with that of known paedophiles, not saying he is one. The point is, it's inappropriate. He might be "just" a man who likes crossing a child's bodily autonomy boundaries, in the same way as a paedophile, without being one. It's dreadful whatever is driving him.

I was sexually abused by my grandfather, trust your gut. This is how these things start out.