Grandad creepy vibes advice please

[Jellybeans20]

hey mums, I've decided to limit contact with the biological grandfather of my LO. I will explain what happened below. I need advice on how to navigate this as we will be seeing grandmother (whom he lives with) a lot. But she will come to us and she doesn't defend his behaviour.
I made it pretty clear since LO was born that we are teaching consent. Grandad does a lot of the forced hugging and kisses, which is counterproductive to how we try to raise our little ones. LO is early mid primary school aged. Last year grandad was relatively ok but still says inappropriate things. He is always eager to push a religious element because the kids are of mixed faith and race background and there's a bit of religious competition and arrogance going on there. Kids call me mummy and he always tries to push a word in his language for the word mummy which is annoying because there's attitude when he does it. The other day, I was dropping grandma off and the grandad sticks his head in the car and kisses LO 3 times on the cheek in the same spot (it was not 3 quick pecks) and asked "did you like it?" which gave me the worst feeling ever. I quickly said "that's a very creepy question to ask". I really didn't like it. It has continued to bother me. It sounds like a grooming question to me. I unpacked it with LO and we have decided to put a double boundary there. Does anyone else think that was a weird question? This grandad has some single dad friends and one of the old men asked his daughter out when she turned 19 or something. He is still friends with that man and the bothers me because that man would have seen his daughter at the age of 10.... I understand the grandad is old and could one day pass but I feel strongly about avoiding him in the context of the kids. I would love to know if you other mums see it the way I see it and what would you do in my position?

thank you so much for the support and encouragement here.
@Heretobenosy he is South Asian. There is not much physical contact. He sometimes grips toddlers that are literally running away.
@Startinganew32 I didn't tell my child GF is not ok. My child said they were uncomfortable with it. The grandad's daughter saw his friend for counselling when she went through a break up and he tried to get her to be with him (which she declined). She was in a very vulnerable position.
@FictionalCharacter I'm so sorry you went through that. Have you been able to speak to your family about this and find support. It is very hard to trust when you're taken advantage of like that. Sending you a lot of good vibes and healing. Yeah my family left me around with relatives that were toxic when growing up. Not good.
To me, the grandmother has privately complained about him. Not in the context of children but lacking boundaries with other women. He is a caring person and has really been there for me in my life but I just see so many red flags with the kids. Like I'm fine with celebrating everyone's religion but sometimes there's a lot of hatred in the rituals. I.e. wanting to one-up the other in-laws background and influence. The intentions aren't as pure. But outside of the kids when I have spoken to him like a decade ago, he seemed to have great conversations about spirituality

I'm with you on the boundaries. I have similar in place and DC have always and felt confident saying no, even to us for a kiss/hug goodnight. If he can't follow the boundaries then he doesn't see the kids. It's simple.

I don't think the comment sounds icky, for lack of a better term, but I didn't hear the tone. I think he's just trying to prove they don't mind. Which is irrelevant as he shouldn't have done it in the first instance.

At the end of the day they're your kids. You do what you need too.

My father is a creep and a rape apologist for his son/my brother and my mother is not much better. They have no contact with our children anymore and our children are now at an age where they know why. Sexual abuse in families is extremely common and it is always boundary ignoring most often but not exclusively men. Go with your gut.

My relatives are from a similar area and it's very rare for there to be any physical contact from men, they find it awkward/something women do. So this seems like a big red flag to me.

@Haveacuppaandwaitforthistoblowover yeah you're right. Grandma is totally against the friend approaching her daughter. However, she has had trouble with her own husband (grandad) and at times this friend has helped Grandad see her side so she values him for that.
@rebmacesrevda i'm so sorry your boundaries were tampered with. that's so scary finding out later that someone part of your childhood was an abuser. I learnt that my tutor that everyone in the community wanted to go to because he was the best of the best old man was caught out abusing students. I went to a few classes and didn't like where his hands would go. He also used to openly pass gas. Was disgusting. But everyone looked up to him. Kind of like the grandad im speakign about. He is respected for doing charity and helping the blind and war affected people. He has also consistently contributed to an orphanage for kids in a disadvantaged country and travels there a lot. As a parent though, I don't allow anyone's record to impress me so much that I let down my guard.
@Berga that's sad for your cousins. I'm glad your mum protected you. Out of curiosity, was the abusive family member in her in-laws family or her own?
@Sardines57 so sorry you had to go through that. I never liked some of our family friends growing up. Many were creepy and often used religion to get close to the family.
@Astrak eww what a creep. I'm so sorry you had to go through that but good on your parents for listening to your truth and protecting you after. Also good on you for screaming and biting. Is this something you were taught?
@BoudiccasBangles did you feel guilty for cutting him off? does it get easier?
@EnjoythemoneyJane thanks. My husband doesn't know about this. I haven't told him yet. He is not a fan of grandad and avoids him at all costs. He would leave the house as soon as he enters the building.

Yes, not very convincing examples tbh

So what, should OP wait for more convincing examples to happen!?

Dont listen to this shite. Trust your gut, as other PP have said. This GF is clearly known for not respecting boundaries and pushing things with women/girls of all ages. He also keeps company with other men who abuse their power and try to take advantage of vulnerable women.

It would be NC for me. None at all.

I find the counsellor coming onto to his 19 year old client very concerning. Breaches ethical conduct.

Completely agree with you trusting your gut.

Your OH leaves the building when he arrives & you haven't discussed this?

Whilst it does sound like your own experiences could cause you to see normal affection as inappropriate, based on what you've said I would not be letting my child out of my sight when he was around and start talking to my DH about him.

I think the question being asked with grooming intent might be a reach but also it may not.

I can’t disclose much here but after my ex-FIL I would never leave any children alone with male figures that even slightly make me uncomfortable. I don’t care if it’s reasonable or not - maybe you’re wrong, maybe you’re not but it’s better to prevent. Go with your gut.

Trust your gut, OP

You’re doing a brilliant job OP. Well done.

the “did you like it” - gives me the chills. He KNOWS he’s pushing boundaries and is taking pleasure from it.

@GreenSkyes I thought it was kind of icky. The grandma was disturbed by the whole thing.
@Yellowseat so sorry to hear about your family but sounds like you made the right decision.
@devilspawn that's what i thought too. grandad's mum was very physically affectionate. She'd rub people's back from under the shirt and the grandad kinda does this to kids ive seen. Grandad's father was not very physical. quick peck kind of guy and only the little grandkids. Having said that, once he pinched his 17 year old grandson in a private part after a religious gathering. Everyone was having dinner and it was in the open but the few witnesses didnt say anything. The grandson was very affected but didn't do anything. When he died, the abused grandson (now a man) didn't go to the funeral but sent a eulogy to be read. But you know, these are the grandad's parents so I wonder about the upbringing and its contribution also

Follow your instinct. It almost sounds like he's deliberately doing this because he doesn't agree with the way you're parenting, and he wants to wind you up or go against what you've taught them.

@Choccyscofffy my parents knew it happened (more than once btw) but chose to pretend it didn't, hence my hatred for them. They still made me get hugged and kissed by elderly relatives who repulsed me. Adults' wishes were paramount; children were subordinate beings and had to obey. If I tried to complain about anything I got "don't be silly", a phrase I heard constantly.

@Jellybeans20 I'm not making this about me, I'm trying to inform people so that they have the assertiveness to protect their children, especially against family and social pressures. There are a lot of people who genuinely have no perceptiveness to behaviour that can be described as creepy, and some of those people post on MN making excuses for these men - even those who are crossing boundaries very seriously.

I hope people have taken on board that your child said she was uncomfortable. This unease isn't coming from the mother, but the child. We should always, always listen to them and act on their feelings, not invalidate them as my parents did to me.

"Don't do that grandad, she doesn't like it" should be enough for them to stop it immediately and permanently. If they don't - and especially if they crow about it as this man is doing - you have to act very firmly, and the only solution is to keep him away from her. If he then gets "hurt" at being excluded that's not for you to worry about. It was his choice.

Info: does the grandfather speak English as a first language? “Did you like it?” may have lacked the creepy undertones if not.

From what I’ve read I’m getting vibes that he just wants to undermine you - he thinks you’re being over the top and wants to prove you wrong. He also wants to show you don’t tell him what to do hence not respecting your requests.

However, I’m suspicious of men who help children (unfortunate but true). Giving to an orphanage is very nice but why does he have to visit there? Does the grandmother join him on these visits?

There is no safeguarding oversight in developing countries and they don’t want to piss donors off so unfortunately while lots of people genuinely want to help, some men have ulterior motives.

Highlighting. Considering the GF’s own parents were sexually abusive and now your OH will not be in the same room as GF.. I’d be taking no risks. Thing with familial abuse is everything must be kept secret, even open secrets must never be spoken about. It’s just the way it is.

Your OH may not wish to talk about it but is giving you clear signs this is not a safe person for even himself, a grown adult. I wouldn’t be letting my DC anywhere near.

I wouldn't let dd ( now 21) anywhere near my creepy uncle and that was way before all the consent stuff nowadays .. trust your instincts !

Remove the old from your post and ask 'what would you do if a man kissed you and asked did you like it?' Because the age is irrelevant.

Op some of your post sounds a bit paranoid but we have no knowledge of you as a person, or of the grandfather or of your experiences with this man. I agree you should follow your instinct because you feel there is a red flag.

He is respected for doing charity and helping the blind and war affected people. He has also consistently contributed to an orphanage for kids in a disadvantaged country and travels there a lot.

This sticks out a mile and has Jimmy Savile vibes all over it

Also, interesting that your husband has nothing to do with his own father, what's the story there?

If you are picking up creepy vibes, I would trust your instincts, and encourage your children to be confident and assertive about their boundaries.
Our school once uncovered historical sexual abuse in this way. One of our pupils was inappropriately approached by her GF, but versed in the ways of bodily autonomy by her mother and PHSE lessons at school, she immediately complained. Outraged mother immediately complained in her turn to an aunt, her SIL, who calmly replied "yeah, he did that to me at the same age". It turned out that young girls of a certain age were his preference, the child's mother was not prepared to go along with the family vow of omerta, and a whole can of worms was opened.

I have this problem with my OH's step-dad. He does the "come and sit on my lap" / "give us a hug" thing when my daughter clearly doesn't want to (but doesn't say no). He doesn't read the situation and instead says "oh come on.. give me a hug! i want a hug!" etc. It is just so awful and cringe that he can't read her body language. I don't think he is actually creepy, just totally socially inept. She's only five but I am encouraging her to say "No" confidently next time we see him and if he then persists I will say "SHE SAID NO".

Gut instinct every time…

I agree with this.

The strong spirituality element which OP mentioned is also a red flag. That is how groomers gain trust. So many disgusting crimes are committed in the name of religion by 'elders' (almost exclusively men) who are just using religion as a cloak of respectability.

@MissDoubleU yes I was too focused on this one event that I didnt explain in detail. But I did think the example i mentioned of the kissing followed by the question gave a good idea. He also puts his hand on the back. like patting the back but under the shirt on the bare skin. I've seen him do that to his daughte'rs kids before. It creeped me out.

@lechatnoir no I haven't spoken to DH about it. he doesnt want the kids to see any of their grandparents in general. his family has contributed to other issues in recent times which has caused him a lot of stress so Im hesitant to bring this up immediately. he would be pro no contact
@Scautish yes you're right and it gives me the chills. it's such a private and intimate question that i'd expect to hear between a couple. the child is 8 years old and male and really not into kissing anyone at the moment. the kiss wasn't 3 fast pecks. it wasn't very slow either but it was like kiss, withdraw then kiss withdraw then kiss. which was also bothersome. like 3 pecks should take 3 seconds at most. I'd say this was 5 or 6 second thing in total. My cheek would feel violated by this. like you said, it's because there's something the other party is deriving from that. once you withdraw from a cheek kiss you don't go back again. i dont see that done outside of romantic situations (or the Muslim embrace) much