To think we have gone wrong with kids as a nation?

[ABigBarofChocolate]

I've been working with kids for a long time and through the years, forms of "punishment" have changed so much.

You hear the whole " when I was at school we got the belt/ruler/??" I don't condone that all.

When I was at school, you got a punishment exercise (writing the same sentence 100 times) or you just didn't get any rewards at the end of the week because your merit chart wasn't full. Very badly behaved kids would either get sent to the HT office or be suspended with work to do.

My DCs school are having a hard time just now. You're basically not allowed to say No to kids these days. It's all positive reinforcement. Don't punish, distract. Etc.

So when the same 2 kids are physically hurting other people's kids or are giving others verbal abuse daily...how are they supposed to handle it?

Did we go wrong when we were told by education big wigs that we were no longer able to make a child feel bad for what they've done to another? No more naughty corner or punishment exercises or being sent out of class or raised voices.

What are your thoughts?

I agree with positive reinforcement and it certainly works well with my 2 DC both with SEN however there are times they absolutely hear the word NO and get a consequence (i personally don't like the word punishment but the action i take is the same) i agree there is too much focus on positive reinforcement without the balance of consequences when needed.

That Plato quote is a hoax

Yes we had a child that parent chased private diagnosis, child of course was given the diagnosis. Child then gets permission to wear trainers, run laps when needs ‘movement break’ etc etc and actually behaviour got so much worse- sadly at the detriment of the other 32 pupils

”Chasing private diagnosis” might mean being unable to wait 5+ years for the NHS

”permission to wear trainers” might mean that the child has sensory needs that impact his ability to focus. Ditto “movement breaks”. My DS has SPD and can’t wear collars, socks with seams, hats, ties (amongst other things). He is also permitted to use a chair that rocks, and to leave the classroom whenever required.

Reasonable adjustments for disabled children are (thankfully) enshrined in law, and the child you are describing is almost certainly ND.

I think it’s naive in the extreme to lay all this disruptive behaviour at the hands of the hordes of feckless parents that apparently exist. It’s more likely that there is a fucktonne of kids with SEN who are being failed by their schools, and for whom no amount of ‘consequences’ would make the slightest difference.

My DP is a teacher now very close to retirement, essentially it's parenting. 40 years ago, there were boundaries and standards of behaviour that teachers were expected to patrol and parents cared about and instilled into their kids, they were supportive. Nowadays not so much, actually hardly at all.

When we were growing up in the 60's and 70's you learned to take the rough with the rough, that some people would win and others wouldn't, that hard work made people into winners, that sometimes life wasn't fair and you just had to get on with it and pick yourself up. We learned to grow up emotionally as well as physically. We learned responsibility and discipline early so we were trusted to do more for ourselves. The world wasn't wrapped in cotton wool. End result, kids used to be more resilient and better prepared for what life throws at you.

Totally agree and I personally just cannot understand the need or want to give a small child an iPad or phone. Makes no sense to me whatsoever. A bit of TV, fine, isn’t killing anyone but a tablet or device. Absolutely no way. Time and a place for tech and it isn’t in small children’s hands.

I hear you! It's so frustrating.

Of course disabled children exist, I have one. But you're sort of proving my point really…mumsnet loves to diagnose every Tom Dick and Harry as being ‘ND’ from a line written on a forum, it’s terrifying. And frankly offensive to those that really do suffer.

@NattyHazelFinch maybe parents wouldn't be chasing private diagnosis if the NHS model was fit for purpose.

No one goes out of their way to pay all that money to access private assessments. You would only do it if you were incredibly sure your child met the criteria, probably why most do come out with a positive diagnosis.

I find you incredibly rude the way you talk about parents having to access private healthcare. Surely you are aware that even private providers DO NOT just take the word of a parent and require evidence from multiple settings? School included.

No it's not.

I translate it myself in Latin class.

You clearly need to do your research. There’s a very good documentary on the bbc iplayer about this very thing. of course a private company is going to give you something you’ve paid for.

I've listened to her a lot, which is why I rate her techniques and policies.

She explains that moving in corridors silently, between classes, has resulted in good behaviour, none of that boisterous fighting or bullying comments between the children and they arrive at the next class quietly, calmly and ready to learn immediately. Good result. They're allowed to talk at break times and contribute in class.

The prayer place - she put a stop to it because some Muslim girls were intimidating other Muslim girls to pray. Quite rightly, she considered that inappropriate behaviour and put an end to it.

She's had many visitors to the school who are impressed by her methods and want to learn from it. From both sides of the political spectrum and from all walks of life, including inspiring careers people, so I don't see an issue there.

@NattyHazelFinch that documents has many many flaws. I've done the research thanks, between looking at private companies and seeing who follows NICE guidelines as well as looking at which companies hold NHS contracts.

I do wonder if it’s a class based split too. Most middle class people in my area seem to adopt the ‘gentle / permissive’ parenting whereby working class folks on the whole seem much more focused on discipline and behaviour.

I don't disagree with you here, but I think what you're missing is that a lot of parents these days are good at the nurturing stuff but terrible at the boundaries, and a lot of teachers are also essentially made to reward and incentivise poor behaviour and told not to set clear boundaries - and this is causing huge problems in children's behaviour. A lot of parents don't want to upset their children or are uncomfortable with them being unhappy, and try to shield them from emotional discomfort, causing children to lack resilience and emotional stability. I've seen it happen a lot in my work, and the people it hurts most of all are the children themselves.

@TonTonMacoute it's like a punch in the heart hearing you list qualities you find to be a 'blight on society.' My disabled Son ticked a good couple.

Ah gentle parenting.

God help us in 20 years time when then adults are having meltdowns at work because they can't do things the way they want to and no one has ever said No to them before.

By the way things are going they won’t even have jobs…

Not to make this sorely about ADHD but the ADHD foundation had a great response to the drivel that was the BBC documentary. www.adhdfoundation.org.uk/2023/05/15/response-to-bbc-panorama-private-adhd-clinics-exposed/

Then you work in a bad setting. Our setting gives consequences.

Yes. I get really annoyed when people I know but their 1yos a tablet for Christmas, birthdays etc. Or give them their mobile to watch YouTube. It shows when you go into a nursery and there are certain children who never go outside to play. They prefer to stay indoors but don't really play. Just throw things or destroy others builds etc...at age 2 or 3.

As for the experts.... This is an awful culture. When my youngest was a baby I was on a FB page for new mums. I didn't understand half of the stuff they were talking about. They all had next to me cribs (what?) and were doing cake smash photo shoots (what a waste of cake) and all this other stuff. It made me feel so inadequate because I wasn't doing a lot of the stuff they were and if I told them my approach it was like they all turned on me and told me I was wrong. I ended up leaving the page and turns out what I was doing was fine. Both kids are still alive, healthy, happy and generally good kids. A bit lazy sometimes lol

Okay ,just checked, we definitely translated it but not plato. Looking at what ChatGPT tells me, I think the one that rings bells is Cicero and I'm sure I remember translating cicero, who apparently wrote about what Plato apparently said.

It was a long time ago, I can't remember details! But it stood out - I do remember our latin teacher laughing about it. Weirdly, I have a clear memory (but whether it's an accurate one or not I can't telll you) of this entire conversatin being had in the context of us studying Pompeii?

This all sounds very familiar. I wonder if it's the same school...

@NattyHazelFinch Not wildly different from deciding that any disruptive kid must have shit parents who don’t know the basics then?

There will be a proportion of these “feral” (amongst other delightful words chosen on this thread) who have autism, ADHD, social and communication difficulties, sensory processing difficulties. Not all by any means. It’s naive and foolish to think that if only all parents were better, all kids would be capable of conforming to expectations.

A more worthwhile debate might be how we can make mainstream schools work for every child, because from where I’m standing, ND children are increasing in number and they have every right to expect an education that meets their needs.

Also trust me when I say parent are not queuing up to pay ££££ for private diagnosis, more for titration and then £300 a month for meds. Most want an nhs diagnosis and are battling a dreadful situation to get one.

Sounds like we could be good mates haha. I feel like I’m the only person in my circles that doesn’t give my child a screen. I’m by NO means perfect parent but that’s my boundary. No iPad, no tablet, no phone use. Until he’s at an age where he can understand it.

also, what’s the need? We play, we go on transport and I talk to him about what’s going on, we walk, etc etc why would I need an iPad for him? Genuinely baffles me