To think we have gone wrong with kids as a nation?

[ABigBarofChocolate]

I've been working with kids for a long time and through the years, forms of "punishment" have changed so much.

You hear the whole " when I was at school we got the belt/ruler/??" I don't condone that all.

When I was at school, you got a punishment exercise (writing the same sentence 100 times) or you just didn't get any rewards at the end of the week because your merit chart wasn't full. Very badly behaved kids would either get sent to the HT office or be suspended with work to do.

My DCs school are having a hard time just now. You're basically not allowed to say No to kids these days. It's all positive reinforcement. Don't punish, distract. Etc.

So when the same 2 kids are physically hurting other people's kids or are giving others verbal abuse daily...how are they supposed to handle it?

Did we go wrong when we were told by education big wigs that we were no longer able to make a child feel bad for what they've done to another? No more naughty corner or punishment exercises or being sent out of class or raised voices.

What are your thoughts?

The difficulty is that there are so many more children with additional needs that old school style punishments are going to do more damage than if there were NT children and you tried to implement the old school methods.

I would say if your class didn’t have neurodiverse kiddos, then yes, writing lines, litter picking, standing in the corner etc would be a better way of disciplining primary school children but those methods will be unfair for some ND children.

As it currently, TAs and teachers often don’t utilise the techniques needed to support children with SEND so it would worry me if we went back to old school punitive methods, if they didn’t consider those children with SEND.

Children with SEND are often not being naughty or disruptive - but they can present in a way that implies they are and can be punished by staff becasue of misunderstanding of their additional needs, especially things like sensory needs or how overwhelmed a child might be at any given moment.

Brilliant comment.
Communist Czechoslovakia here.
No problems whatsoever.
Very fortunate not to need to live around the young generation at all.

Not what I said whatsoever but of course mumsnet loves to be chronically offended.

Totally agree. This situation ruined high school for my eldest. Very academic and enthusiastic all through primary and year 7 and then it all went to the dogs.
Partly due to staffing issues but mainly the fact that so many children just refused to engage in lessons or behave. They mixed lower and upper groups together, so the lower group could be supported by the uppers and supposedly aspire to match their abilities, but they couldn't do the work ( not their fault) and just disrupted every lesson. Even at parents evening a teacher said how good Dd was doing, but apologised that he couldn't do more as his time was spent attempting to sort out unruly behaviour- to no avail.

You can't teach/train/modify anyones behaviour with just one quadrant (of learning theory).

These quadrants do not happen in a vaccuum, do not happen in isolation and also require other factors.

Positive reinforcement works fantastically well (read Karen Pryors 'Don't Shoot The Dog' - not in fact a dog training book at all!!), however it requires the use of negative punishment - the removal of the expected reinforcer, to balance out.

In practical terms, to do this you must have control over the valued resources, primary reinforcers and the environment in which the subject operates.

This simply does not apply to children, particularly other peoples children and particularly outside the home.

It works brilliantly with dogs, cats, rabbits, orcas, butterflies, chimps, gorillas, tigers... the list is damn near endless but the fact is, we can control their environments, access to resources, and to primary, secondary and tertiary reinforcers.

Positive reinforcement also requires us not to put the subject under so much stress that they go 'over threshold' and can no longer process and learn properly.

And schools are one area where children are very likely to be over threshold much of the time.

Homes should be a sanctuary, a place of calm and peace where people can rest - unfortunately with the need for both (assuming there are two) parents to work being unavoidable for many families and the time people have to spend at home relaxing being vanishingly short...

And add in the modern tech that means we're always available, always 'on', never experiencing downtime from the minute we open our eyes to the minute we go to sleep...

Home is often not the environment kids need to grow and learn in either!

I haven't got any solutions (well I have but they're far too loopy lefty to ever become reality so theres no point wearing out my keyboard), I am just a dog behaviourist. Unless something changes, the species is fucking itself, into oblivion.

I think we have major issues with parenting teens.

Too many are given lots of privilege and no concomitant obligations. They are allowed to rule the roost and behave in exactly the way boy kings or girl queens would be expected to.

It is totally unfair on them, as they are responding exactly how anyone would in the same position, and then parents are told ‘teens are like that’ and it is just a phase.

Except it’s not a phase teens went through in the past or go through in most other cultures, so it is clearly not intrinsic to being a teen.

Teens, like all children (and most adults, really) need lots of praise but also clear boundaries and expectations. With the right incentives, the vast majority are a real joy and asset to a household or society.

(Of course there are exceptions and some terrible parents with great teens and some wonderful parents with terrible teens but, to a great extent, the above is true).

I wouldn't waste your breath. Clearly some posters just think kids are little shits and need to do as they are told. Completely overlooking any potential SEND issues. Or if they do have issues it's obviously the parents fault.

I hear you. I'm quite laid back but I've had to let 2 friendships lapse with other mums because they can't discipline them. One of the mums I've known since our now 6 year olds were babies. The last time we had a play date I took my two children to her house and we had to leave early because her child wouldn't stop chasing my oldest (3 years older than hers!) around with a stick while she did nothing. This was a couple of years ago, and surprise surprise now her child exhibits behavioural problems at school. People now think "gentle" parenting means no discipline or boundaries.

I also think some children do naturally need more discipline than others and there's nothing wrong in acknowledging that children in the same family sometimes need a different approach. My children are a good example of this - one of them is much more likely to misbehave than the other, and therefore needs more of a firm hand (figuratively).

I’m an ex-teacher, I started to realise something had gone quite wrong when a group of children were allowed to ‘interview’ potential new teachers and said no to two women because they were ‘fat’
I think giving children a voice has gone too far. The young don’t aways know what’s in their best interest and being too soft on them and only allowing ‘positive reinforcement’ is dangerous (in my opinion!)

Not a single person has said this. Perhaps it would help to reflect on why you feel so personally offended all the time? It isn’t healthy at all.

Blimey! Let’s hope you don’t work with children!
Heaven forbid a child with SEND gets a private diagnosis and then actually needs reasonable adjustments hey?!

If the child with the trainers behaviour got worse, it wasn’t because they were having movement breaks, it was because the school and staff STILL weren’t supporting his needs and he was wasn’t able to self-regulate sufficiently.

Wow and you actually laugh at parents of children SEND? 😢

As parents you're told to ignore the bad and praise the good too..

Can you provide a link to it of a Plato source?
The origin I am aware of is Rev. Theodore M. Hesburgh attributing the quote to Plato in 1968. But I have read academic discussions of the quote where those participating say they can not find the quote in an original source/ So if you can please let me know.

One of the problems I see is that not just in schools, but in life in general, people lean over backwards to give someone the benefit of the doubt, a second chance, understand them, be fair to them.

What doesn't seem to be taken into consideration is that in a lot of cases this is unfair to the victim or people for whom the behaviour produces fall out. They're expected to keep quiet under #bekind.

It's all very well to say we understand that a child is getting overwhelmed and lashing out, so we must make allowances for them and give them a fair chance.
But that is not fair on the children who are on the receiving end.
And I speak as one who had one who has ASD and did lash out when overwhelmed.

Not remotely offended. I’m too tired from looking after my PDA autistic ADHD DS to take offence, and these attitudes don’t surprise me any more. MN is rife with ableist posters, sadly (and no, I don’t mean you specifically).

Fwiw DS8 is both severely disabled and ticks a lot of the disruptive/feral boxes being trotted out on here (although I personally would balk at using those terms to describe a child). I’ve used every parenting strategy in the book, including all those mentioned on here. Trust me, a PDA child doesn’t give a flying fuck about consequences, and an autistic child can no more control a meltdown than I can control the moon.

Our local authority all sings from the same hymn sheet. A band of office jockeys who have never worked on the floor with children firing off several emails a week full of the ‘latest’ policies and stances, none of which include consequences. All of which include positive reinforcement and ‘all behaviour is communication’. In fact one of the pieces of advice we were given is when a child is swearing at you calling you every name under the sun then we should……laugh at them. Brilliant

In my son's school they def are. But it's private (but not expensive) so the parents have actively chosen to put their children there. The waiting list is huge so they only take in good and well-behaved students from y 7 and the parents get screened as well. The only thing I regret is the lack of diversity. Not one Asian/African student in my son's class whereas in state where he went to elementary half of his class was of Asian origin.

These threads about general trends always get diverted into a discussion about the neurodiverse.

Most children aren’t neurodiverse and, of those who are, most aren’t behaviourally an issue. And, it is true that many seek diagnoses to get better conditions in schools and for exams. I taught one child who had gone through three ed psychs until finally a fourth one gave them the diagnosis they required.

Of course, allowances should be made for the small minority of genuinely struggling neurodivergent children, but that isn’t what this thread is about,

Maybe MN should have some acronym about a thread only being about the neurotypical, so we could have a discussion about parenting and educational trends without it always ending up about how the neurodiverse should be accommodated (yes, we know, thanks).

May not say but outright but it's is definitely implied @NattyHazelFinch

I'm grateful we have schools backing when it came to my DD private diagnosis that I so obviously chased. :)

When we are gone, yes; in the meantime, we're still here. They must wait.

Yeah coz let’s not integrate ALL children hey?
People speaking about neurodiversity are doing so becasue it’s 100% relevant to the original post.

When only approximately 16% of autistic children grow up and are able to work full time, don’t you think what happens in primary school might make a huge difference once they finish school? Or do you feel that children with SEND don’t matter? We are merely saying that old school styles of discipline in today’s world just aren’t suited to new style education and many of the children we have today.

Exactly. As long as you're engaging with your child, they're learning. I get that nurseries encouraging the use of technology so if they get a turn of a tablet there then fair enough but not constantly.

@ABigBarofChocolate I agree but not with your line of thinking.

Children want to please be loved and appreciated and liked. They want to do well.

So why are they messing around or being rude. Behaviour is communicating.

Sort these issues out and all will be well.

Great :) glad it’s worked out for you 👍🏻