To think we have gone wrong with kids as a nation?

[ABigBarofChocolate]

I've been working with kids for a long time and through the years, forms of "punishment" have changed so much.

You hear the whole " when I was at school we got the belt/ruler/??" I don't condone that all.

When I was at school, you got a punishment exercise (writing the same sentence 100 times) or you just didn't get any rewards at the end of the week because your merit chart wasn't full. Very badly behaved kids would either get sent to the HT office or be suspended with work to do.

My DCs school are having a hard time just now. You're basically not allowed to say No to kids these days. It's all positive reinforcement. Don't punish, distract. Etc.

So when the same 2 kids are physically hurting other people's kids or are giving others verbal abuse daily...how are they supposed to handle it?

Did we go wrong when we were told by education big wigs that we were no longer able to make a child feel bad for what they've done to another? No more naughty corner or punishment exercises or being sent out of class or raised voices.

What are your thoughts?

I think all behaviour is communication. But I strongly believe kids need showing more appropriate ways to communicate. I have two SEND kids, my dd is traumatised by the appalling behaviour of other kids at school, often SEN kids but either way the teachers have no power or time to deal with it. She was constantly saying she struggles and the teacher can't help her as dealing with behaviour. I raised it multiple times with the school and told she's doing great stop worrying. Then her SATs come back working towards so clearly she was struggling as she's an intel girl. Schools response was shes high average for the school they need to support the other children more than her and literally can't do anything to support with work or address the bullying behaviour of the other children. I had to stop work to care for my son so I now home educate dd and she's a different child. And way ahead of national average in most areas. She didn't even need much support I give her a lot of independent work- she just needed a safe environment and an explanation of the work not interrupted by other kids and not read verbatim from a fucking Twinkl PowerPoint.

My ds is one of the distributive high support needs kids the LA tried to force into mainstream, he utterly couldn't cope and became violent to other children and staff. The LA wanted him to stay at that school and the school illegally off rolled him. That's a long story in itself. The LA tried to force him into another school and I stood my ground and fought for 2 years to get him different provision. I had to stop working to care for him as I refused to put other children and staff through his behaviour and cause him all the trauma. But what if I wasn't able to stop work? There is no help for these kids. My son took the TA or the class teacher just to keep others safe. Constant 1:1 supervision. Constant class disruption. And it took me 2 years to get the EHCP so school had no money to meet this need. All the other children suffered because of it. It's what schools are like. The most difficult children need the staffs attention to the detriment of all the others simply because of safety. Or they are significantly challenged with learning disabilities and so far behind they take a staff member to teach them separately as the class work isn't appropriate. But they are in mainstream school with mainstream teachers who have a full class of children they also have to teach?!

Now my son is in different provisions I'm having the opposite problem, they are very "all behaviour is communication" he faces no consequences and tell me he's had a good day then his carer tells me actually he did x y z. It boils my blood if I hear he's been violent and faced no consequences just because he's autistic. That's not ok either as one day he will be an adult ffs. And he needs to learn not to behave like that but to communicate in other ways to meet his needs in other ways etc. I feel like when he was in mainstreamy parenting was blamed as too permissive must be terrible mother now he's in SEN education I'm judged for wanting some consequences for him and I'm seen as too harsh. And lots of other SEN parents have this attitude their kid can't be challenged on behaviour and should be allowed to disadvantage others because they have SEN. Ffs no!! They need extra support and understanding because they have SEN but they have to learn not to hurt or disadvantage others or we face utter hell when this generation reaches adulthood!

I think we need more SEN schools. Intergration isn't working. It should be an option should the family want it but most of us don't. We need smaller classes. More TAs. More streaming based on level so the teacher can teach the whole class the same thing not have to teach the same thing at 3 different levels and also run an intervention for the kids who can't even work at the lowest level on the set topic. My dd school had 5 classes in each year, I just think those 5 teachers were each juggling all these various levels when they could have split them into 3 ability levels and had the two remaining teachers run interventions.

It's well know and well documented that good early help reduced later need for services and support and leads to better outcomes. Pouring money into early years and primary will save more in the long run for secondary and adults. Not just education either but mental health and crime even physical health treated earlier is better for the individual and cheeper for society long term.

And I feel something needs to be done about social media. Negative gender stereotypes. Violent games and media. Online dangers. But what can be done I have no idea.

@borisjohnsonsforgottencondom I really don't see the problem with schools being accommodating of kids who are ND or have ASD if it's not harmful or disruptive to the other children in the class.
Its great that you were able to find a way to convince your son with ASD to wear shoes that comply with the uniform policy. My son with ASD will absolutely not wear short sleeve tops or shorts and is particularly fussy about textures. We are fortunate that kids don't have to wear school uniform here so its easy to accomodate this. On the times that he has had to put on a t shirt - (for example he got his top wet in school and I mistakenly left a t shirt as a spare) he has been inconsolable, immediately taken it off or had it half hanging off for the rest of the day. What might seem like the smallest thing to an NT person or parent is actually one of the biggest triggers for a child like mine with ASD, to the extent that we then experience school refusal.
I'm glad that his school is accommodating of those quirks- they are not harmful and do not affect the other children and allow my son to attend and enjoy school. The teachers tell me he is one of the easiest kids they have and I know he loves it there. It's not about giving in and letting him have what he wants, it's about recognising that he has ASD and some things are really difficult for him. That might well change in the future. And we keep trying again each year. But the world already feels pretty "uncomfortable" for him. I certainly dont want to deliberately make him feel more uncomfortable unnecessarily or put him even further out of his comfort zone. I anticipate each year we will see some improvement as we have been so far.

And abusive bullies are given head pats and sympathy because they had a difficult upbringing.

I don't see feeling uncomfortable and out of your comfort zone as a negative, maybe that's the difference here.

Agreed. Unfortunately the world won’t flex for my disabled children forever, and also there will be a time that I won’t be here for him, either. There has to be a middle ground, for sure

@borisjohnsonsforgottencondom my point is if you have a child with ASD it's not so black and white. They don't respond the same way a NT kid does to being out of their comfort zone or uncomfortable. Just because it works for you and your ASD kid it doesn't mean it works for all and I think it's unfair to throw that out there on a public forum when there is already so much misinformation about ASD. If you've met one child with ASD, then you've met one child with ASD. You know your child best, and I know mine best. When my son started a new school in September, I knew social interaction would be his biggest challenge and what he would find the most daunting. I didn't feel like I needed to then force him into shorts and t shirts to make him feel extra uncomfortable to prove a point. I have another friend who's daughter has autism. She's in mainstream school. She has selective mutism and it has taken her a year and a half to say 1 word in school. Because of her selective mutism it has meant she has not been able to communicate when she needs to go to the toilet. She also has a fear of using toilets outside of home. Her mum has to go in at regular intervals in the day to take her to the toilet. What would you suggest here? Let her pee her pants to teach her a lesson, make her feel uncomfortable?
The fact that the school and her mum have been so accommodating to make her environment "comfortable" and a safe space is amazing and it shows, because here we are one and half years later and she's been able to say her first words in school.

It's not really a case of not daring to, it's just pointless. From the point of view of an individual teacher in an individual school, you are never going to affect the school behaviour policy. Primary school behaviour is shocking, with the worst and most persistent offenders simply told "that's not ok", then rewarded with fun activities outside the classroom. While the kids who's work they smashed up watch through the window from their English grammar lesson. I quit.

Yanbu. It's way too soft. Structure, routine and discipline are good when growing up. I agree it's back to front, adults now scared and pandering to kids whims.

Meanwhile, all these little sociopaths are going to be in the workforce in however many years and driving cars etc. No impulse control? Never mind, just plough through people on the zebra crossing. Fuckers shouldn't be in my way. Employed as a home carer? Grandma getting on your nerves? Give her a swift kick, serves her right. Doesn't she know I'm doing her a massive favour coming out to her rotten home as part of my stupid boring job? Want to be up all night partying, playing deafingly loud music? Crack on, why shouldn't I? It's my burfday innit? Doesn't matter about the neighbours. Can't be bothered to feed the pet dog? Spent the money on gel nails? Sod it, let it starve, serves it right for being a dog in the first place.

Conscience formation. The conscience fairy doesn't sprinkle it on junior as soon as he/she pops out.

Parents have a responsibility to raise non feral citizens who are fit to be let out each day.

No wonder ND people struggle in the workforce having to share the space with the entities schools/parents are spitting out now.

Doesn’t nurturing a child include teaching respect for others, self discipline and responsibility for one’s behaviour, and appropriate boundaries? This engenders a safe learning environment for all?

Lack of discipline at home and at school leads to more shoutiness often and this makes everyone more stressed. It's a bad situation.

Years ago my French GP year said, you are the boss when it comes to your children, manage them well and you call the shots. I've never forgotten it. I also try to emphasise that being accountable for your own actions and the consequences that follow.

I think the balance is skewed when young dc are just taught about their own emotional regulation, self-confidence and happiness and the emphasis is solely on how they feel, in isolation, without any context, or little reference to others.

Jeez...I hope you don't teach my child!

No kid is 'not very nice' by default (and yes i do work with challenging children too) but of course their behaviour can certainly become so, if not because of SEN then through facing adverse experiences and/or negative influences, which sadly are often parental relationship based.

The comparison you make between adults and kids doesn't make sense at all...surely you realise adults have responsibility for and control for their actions in a way that children cannot.

They do something used in schools called 'Restorative practice' which does cover this.

Yes some of the rules are pathetic...I absolutely dread having to deal with it when my eldest daughter goes in afew years.

Is that where the bully gets to sit down with their victim and hear just how effective their actions have been?

Totally agree: we live in such a namby pamby politically correct world now.

if I misbehaved at school and the teacher told my parents, they always believed them and I got in more trouble when I got home. I was often grounded for a week or whatever and that was in the days when going out with your mates was normal. Punishments were always followed through.

kids are just totally pampered now.

Childen who are bullying others , hurting others do not lead to a "safe environment and nurturing relationships " for the victims

If you separate the two you are punishing the bully ( although often the victim is punished more by being moved away from their friends )

If you don't separate them , you harm the victim

If you treat the bully as the one who needs extra care and affection you give a very strange message to the victim and children are not stupid and learn well - not the messages you speak to them but the messages you show them

You can't avoid hurting one of those childen - and hurting victim rather than the bully is wrong

Children from bad parents and rotting families can become wonderful people but if they are taught that they can do what they like and get treated like princesses as a result then they won't

Yes, it does. Punishment which was mentioned in the OP is not so helpful, however, and that’s what I’ve addressed in my responses.

Can you teach respect without recourse to the potential for punishment ?

I suspect not - if there is no punishment for behaviour others don't like , there is surely no reason for me to stop it

Young women too.

What gets me about this is that effectively, the people allowing these kids to carry on with their disruptive behaviur are "communicating" to the kids who are trying to learn that they don't matter, that learning doesn't matter, and that their feelings and even physical security aren't important.

And then you get this - oh, you can't exclude little David, he has an absolute right to go to school and he's had a hard time.

Sure, and the state should do what it can to help him (which may be less effective than we would wish), but that does not make it ok to compromise Jill's education, or to let Michael be picked on every day. They have as much right to a good education and a peaceful environment as David, and David is making it clear he has no interest in respecting the others in the class.

Too many parents are glued to their phones instead of interacting with their child and parenting and teaching them. I feel sad when I see a young baby in a pram being pushed along by a parent (usually a mother) with earphones jammed in. These are times they should be interacting with their child chatting and pointing out dogs, leaves etc. Instead the poor child stares mutely at a semi present parent who prefers listening to music instead of interacting with the child that they chose to have.

I think this could end up being counter-productive.

I expect there will always be some kids from families where no one will really parent, and they'd be better off in a nursery from a young age.

But overall, I think parents have been really disempowered to bring up their own children. Large numbers of them are in a long day of institutionalized care from a young age, and parents have been put in the position that they don't spend enough time with them to really know how they tick, they don't see the vast majority of their relationships and interactions first hand. They certainly don't see them enough of the day to potty train them.

So of course they feel like they can't do these things.

And once they are in school, parents have been taught that their child's behaviour and education is the responsibility primarily of the state. If there are problems, it's the state's job to make it work somehow.

These are kids that have been completely institutionalized, and parents who have been taught to feel they aren't up to the job.

Oh come on. Telling a child who has misbehaved that he will not be allowed to use his gaming system for a week, or will have to help his mum tidy the garage rather than go to see a film, or even that you will tell his mum and she is going to be totally pissed that you pounded some kid in gym class, is not "fear-based."

Not liking something or being upset is not being afraid.