To think we have gone wrong with kids as a nation?

[ABigBarofChocolate]

I've been working with kids for a long time and through the years, forms of "punishment" have changed so much.

You hear the whole " when I was at school we got the belt/ruler/??" I don't condone that all.

When I was at school, you got a punishment exercise (writing the same sentence 100 times) or you just didn't get any rewards at the end of the week because your merit chart wasn't full. Very badly behaved kids would either get sent to the HT office or be suspended with work to do.

My DCs school are having a hard time just now. You're basically not allowed to say No to kids these days. It's all positive reinforcement. Don't punish, distract. Etc.

So when the same 2 kids are physically hurting other people's kids or are giving others verbal abuse daily...how are they supposed to handle it?

Did we go wrong when we were told by education big wigs that we were no longer able to make a child feel bad for what they've done to another? No more naughty corner or punishment exercises or being sent out of class or raised voices.

What are your thoughts?

@Goldbar fair point. But a free nursery place with a proper meal and cutlery could be teaching those skills.
I understand what you are saying that some families have major day to day issues. But we do not help children if we just accept they will be behind with some skills. That is what my primary school did. Most of us were living in 1 or 2 rooms a family/ Luckily my family moved and the teachers at my new school had high expectations of us.

Good point

Government won’t like this . Who watches the kids while one parent parents .
Who will buy the latest gadgets the kids want from peer pressure .

Two parents these days, both work .
Single Parents , they aren’t allowed to parent their kids either.
Government nursery places from age two so single parents are made to go back to work.
What do people think society is/ was going to turn out like .
The world has gone mad and the ones ruling Britain are making a massive mess of it !

We always encouraged things like using cutlery at nursery! And not just in pre school but from baby room.

Nursery can try and do as much as they can but if it isn't backed up at home by the parents it's futile I fear.

Long time TA - too many parents want to be their child’s best friend not their parent. Some just never say no to anything.

An example of many , being sworn at by a 5 year old (asked him to get down off the outdoor picnic table ) to only find Dad thought it was hilarious and “that’s my boy” attitude. They were best buds.

having said that I’d not want to go back to 1970s parenting that could be very damaging. There must be a happy medium somewhere.

That is sad. But why are they not learning age appropriate skills at nursery? Is it because they do not spend enough time there to learn these skills? Or are nurseries seeing it as good to aim for, but not essential?

I think this is interesting and something I've often thought about. Today I took my 4yo to soft play and a 5yo boy repeatedly hit/kicked my son. The first time, the dad was sat 2m away and did not do anything, despite noticing the commotion. This kid proceeded to attack a 2 yo. Again, the dad did nothing. The 3rd time, I heard my son crying at the back of the area and I intervene, and find the 5yo has my 4yo pinned to the ground and is pummeling him with his fists. So I very loudly shout at him to stop, how dare he do that, that it was not nice, that I was telling his dad and he needed to leave immediately. He then said "no you wont", and ran off crying to his dad. Who then eventually came over and asked what had happened. So I told him, that whilst he'd been sat on the other side of the room chatting, his son had been attacking children. He then says my son would like to say sorry. His son says "no I dont". The dad says "I think you do". The boy says "no I dont". The dad says oh OK. And the boy carries on playing, without consequence. And that's the problem. Lazy parenting. It happens more often than not when we go to soft play, and not wanting to stereotype, it's often the dads. If it had been the other way round, I would have immediately intervened, told my son off and if he did it a second time, or refused to apologise, I would have taken him home. But some parents can't be bothered.

Quite a few of these issues come from the overuse of screens. Not only are children constantly given screens for a quiet life, parents are also hooked on screens and want to be left alone to do it.
Parents aren't doing the basics.
I know of primary schoolchildren who are gaming from 3.30 to 10pm and teens who are on their phones from 3.30 to 3am.
Parents have disengaged and children are left unparented.
In theory, it's so simple to give your children what they need -
Time to talk and listen
Healthy meals
Take them out for fresh air and exercise
Give them responsibilities
Read to them
Show them affection

But all these things take time and too many parents would rather take the easy way out so they can have more time to relax and be on their phone.

I am an ex teacher although I left teaching in the UK 10 years ago and from what I heard the behaviour continued getting worse and worse.

I think a lot of it is about misinterpreting. It's just like gentle parenting. It's something I follow but I don't like to use the term as most people saying they gentle parent are actually permissive parenting.

Someone above even mentioned gentle parenting and never being told no. Anyone actually practising gentle parenting holds very firm boundaries and says no very regularly. They just don't shame children for the way they feel. They don't expect them to bury feelings or feel shame for feeling an ugly emotion, but instead focus on acknowledging feelings and focusing on controlling your actions.

Actual gentle parenting is literally just parenting with firm boundaries while teaching them to recognise their emotion and accept it's just a feeling and it's ok and will pass.

Gentle parents do not let their child kick them. They physically prevent it if needed. They help the child notice the anger and reassure them they can get through it but they make very clear what the rules are on the behaviour and enforce them.

The parent I saw on TV whose kid was kicking her repeatedly while she said "stop kicking. It's ok to be angry but not to kick." yet never actually doing anything about the kicking was not gentle parenting at all.

The parent of the toddler at play group who walked up to mine and stomped on him out of nowhere was not practising gentle parenting when she said "oh remember we don't hit. We should be kind instead" while never removing the child or doing anything about it.

A lot of people who were raised being told to stop crying, to stop being a baby, or mocked for showing emotion, heard about gentle parenting and thought it sounded great.

Somewhere along the way though they thought it meant we should let children make all the decisions, fit our lives around children and never make them do anything they don't want to do.

This was never what it was all about. Validating an emotion doesn't mean telling your child they are right and everyone else is wrong. There are tons of books that explain it but permissive parenting is easier and so a lot of parents just do that instead.

I think sadly exactly the same thing happened with school. We realised that rewarding attainment instead of effort wasn't the best way of doing things and realised that dunce hats and shaming low ability kids was damaging. We learned that some kids with bad home lives behave worse because of that.

Again somehow this got misinterpreted and we decided that troubled children should face no consequences and acted as if children have no control and no responsibility for their actions. We decided that children should be constantly entertained and engaged and never allowed to feel bored or frustrated.

The headteacher at one school I taught at used to make us send children to her as part of the behaviour policy if they were being disruptive and she used to literally let them play games on iPads as they "must be overwhelmed" in class. I was also told repeatedly that if any single child misbehaved then it was because my lesson wasn't engaging enough.

Loads of theory about nurturing children who weren't getting what they needed at home came up but again is was all misinterpreted. The children who have bad home lives need boundaries and structure more than anyone. They need people to believe in them and have confidence that they can behave and do well. Instead what they get is the message that so little is expected of them that everyone walks on eggshells and is amazed if they manage to not punch someone for ten minutes. They can do whatever they want and nobody even cares enough to enforce consequences.

Children do need positive relationships. There's nothing wrong with teachers caring about children and being there for them and showing that they have their back but they can do all that with respect there too. If a kid with a troubled home life tells you to fuck off and then they get sent rock climbing when they refrain from doing so for three days then what message does that send about how little is expected of them?

We never needed to stop the firm boundaries at school or at home. That's never needed to change.

When a child throws themself on the floor in Asda because they want a toy, of course you don't buy it for them. You just don't need to laugh at them and tease them and ridicule them either. It can just be neutral. No more toys. That's it. You can be disappointed but it won't change anything. You're not a bad child or a spoilt child or anything. You're just simply not having the toy.

And at school when a kid isn't doing their work, and is messing around, the teacher can definitely consider that it might be something at home or maybe they don't understand it or maybe they're hungry. But they can still put the boundary or consequence in place for breaking a rule. They just don't need to call the child stupid or aim to humiliate them in front of the class or tell them they'll never amount to anything. You struggled to focus today so you'll need to come and finish off at break so you don't get behind. It doesn't make you bad. It's just neutral. You did this so now this happens. Tomorrow is a new day.

The kid knows you care in part BECAUSE you want them to do well and you're putting them rules in place because you want them to achieve and know they can.

Being consistent is safe. Being firm is safe. I'm so concerned about the way children are treated like adults or like friends.

You see threads on here all the time:

My four year old never lies so the teacher must be lying.

I let my kid climb up the slide the wrong way at soft play and expect all the other kids to stand and wait for him to do so because he's creative and doesn't need to conform.

My child kicked his grandmother and she grabbed his hand to get him off. Im thinking of calling the police to report her.

It's just so ridiculous and more than anything it must be confusing and frightening for kids when the adults enforce no rules and think them incapable of the most basic self control and resilience.

10000000% this 👏🏻

Massive. Restorative conversations etc may be what’s best for the disruptive child but what about the other 30-odd kids?

They are being taught that thumping someone has no consequences, that no one will prioritise their safety, that their learning can be disrupted and it doesn’t matter.’, that school is a scary, violent place. No o e ever thinks about why there’s a child mental health crisis and so many children are school refusers.

To those that spout the ‘all behaviour is communication’ nonsense I’d love to know what you’d tell my 8 year old to convince them to go to school when they know they are probably going to be assaulted yet again?

I believe that a mixture of both nature and nurture is what forms who we become. I wasn’t inferring that consequences are unnecessary or that the motivation comes naturally. What I’m saying is that the motivation is grown under the right circumstances; nurture and safety. They absolutely need input to learn and develop. I don’t believe that punishment, which is inherently fear and shame based, is the way to build a firm sense of right and wrong, regulation or motivation.

Not only are these so-called parents afraid to say No, they want their wet methods to be extended into school, ie no-one should say No to their precious, it will twarmatise the little horror.
One only has to read this site, which I do for amusement, to see why this situation has been allowed to develop, children are considered to be the centre of the Universe with no consequences for poor behaviour because poor behaviour is obviously caused by some 'issue' that can then be palmed off onto some other agency.

I have a friend with a 4 year old in a private school and she is having to move him because he's being bullied by multiple children and the school are not addressing it. So far most of the incidents have happened at break time; he has had his trousers pulled down, been hit and kicked, spat at, food thrown at him, pushed over and had his hair pulled. The school response has been to tell the parents that he's probably a bit sensitive and not used to other kids because he's an only child. It's awful. The school has said they think 4/5 year olds spitting on other kids is normal. As you can imagine the school has now developed a reputation for accommodating bullies. And it goes beyond the playground. On the weekends at parks, parents are on the phone, distracted, not engaging with their kids. I've seen one 4yo at a birthday party attack a group of kids with a metal pole. Mum is distracted. I tell him off. Mum comes over and says "oh he's a bit of a handful", and doesn't take the pole off him. 5 mins later he's whacked the birthday boy in the face and cut his lip open. I mean God help us. I'm by no means a perfect parent. My son has high functioning autism, and has been prone to violent outbursts but we have made alot of headway with his behaviour and seen a vast improvement. It's taken alot of effort, intervention and firm boundaries to get here. We don't have any issues in school and we are lucky he has a lovely, kind and gentle cohort. What doesn't help is when he's asking why other kids are being allowed to hit, kick, and bite at the park, soft play, birthday parties. They're not even little kids either, theyre 5 or 6 and old enough to know better. But what they all have in common, are parents that cant be bothered to parent. My son's school does not tolerate bullying whatsoever and it's something I took into consideration when we viewed it.

I think a lot of people don’t know the distinction between consequence and punishment. Thank you, this has nailed it!

Absolutely spot on.

I was just about to post this, but in my case London comp 90s. Loads of fights improve impromptu between teenage boys, in comparison my teenagers have only seen as one fight.

Excellent post @ToddlerSwim

The problem is with school itself. Hundreds of children forced together, all from different backgrounds with vastly different home lives and parenting styles.
Teachers trying to control big classes and not enough support.
I am old enough to have experienced harsh punishment styles from teachers, and all it did was make the well behaved children scared, and the others, well, violence does breed violence.
Behaviour is communication, but to no avail if teachers don't have the resources to support children, and if the children go home to unsupportive parents.

Nailed it @ToddlerSwim

Echoing posters who get fed up with all bad behaviour threads getting into a ND pity party.

I have ASD and ADHD, all 3 of my kids have it too and not once have I ever felt offended by threads like this as I do not tolerate shitty behaviour. I am also teaching my kids to tolerate feeling uncomfortable whenever possible so they are prepared for life.

One son struggles with shoes, guess what, in life you often have to wear shoes.. so we have found ways of making his shoes meet the rules rather than asking for the school rules to change. Took ages to find but we got there in the end. If a kid can wear trainers, there will be an appropriate shoe they can find. 3 other kids were trainers, one came in wearing football shoes and that was apparently fine.

Bloody ridiculous.

And then these kids get to secondary and are either isolated or expelled or not having the correct shoes.

👏🏻 exactly what I was trying to say but of course the usual faces come out of the woodwork to be offended at everything and anything, often not acknowledging we too are either ND or have ND or disabled children. Ludicrous.
your post gives me hope though @borisjohnsonsforgottencondom

What kind of skills are you referring to? Children are taught to use cutlery and drink from cups that are age and stage appropriate. They are toilet trained in nursery alongside the parents doing it at home. They are encouraged not to swear, hit, bite, throw things etc.... "kind hands" "walking feet" (no running indoors) "indoor voice" ( no shouting exceptionally loud indoors) it's these 3 phrases on repeat. If they do hit another child, you explain that's it's not nice and distract them in another area.

Nurseries can try and teach all the skills they want but it needs underpinning by the parents at home. If it isn't it's pointless.

I have ASD and ADHD, all 3 of my kids have it too and not once have I ever felt offended by threads like this as I do not tolerate shitty behaviour. I am also teaching my kids to tolerate feeling uncomfortable whenever possible so they are prepared for life.

You may be ND but you do not speak for everyone else who is. My son has a similar diagnosis to you, but is severely disabled and will probably never live independently. I don’t tolerate shitty behaviour either but:

He cannot use cutlery or write.
He cannot use cutlery.
He cannot cope in a classroom.
He is occasionally violent and often disruptive.

In other words, about a quarter of the posts on here could be describing him.

I’m not offended, just sad that people have so little understanding of a disability (and apparently hold my parenting responsible for at least part of it).

What I’m saying is that it could happen to any of you. It’s not your fabulous parenting that stops your DC being like mine, it’s a bit of genes and a lot of luck.

Would you describe a group of mothers whose children are in wheelchairs (for example) as a “pity party”? If not, why do you feel able to insult parents of other disabled children? Those parents might infer from the careless remarks on this thread that they are held responsible for the collateral damage of an education system that largely fails ND children.