WWYD - child with no manners

[Rainallnight]

DD’s best friend has no manners. They’re both 8 and a half.

We’ve had friend around for plenty of play dates and have done some days out etc. She literally never, ever says please or thank you, and just comes across as quite demanding in how she asks for things. No SEN that I’m aware of.

DD is no angel and sometimes needs prompting on manners but is generally pretty reliable, as I think kids should be at this age.

Friend’s mum has texted me thanking me for the most recent play date and asking some quite searching questions about her daughter’s behaviour, as well as saying she hopes her DD didn’t come across as rude or demanding.

What do I do? I’d never spontaneously offer feedback but she has asked. But criticising anyone’s child has never ended well.

YABU - don’t say a word
YANBU - tell her what how her DD behaves.

I used to ask questions like this about my child and I genuinely wanted to know. We were struggling at home and looking at a trying to pursue a diagnosis. I felt like I was going mad as they masked so well at school … I felt like I was the only one seeing it and felt totally alone.

They have now been diagnosed as both Autistic & ADHD and we used statements from some of their friends parents in the forms we filled in!

If the Mum is asking she already knows!

If she has reached out asking, there must be a reason/suspicion of SEN. Girls with autism are often not spotted as they are sometimes better at masking etc
My eldest is autistic, not diagnosed until final years of primary school. I had suspected since he was a toddler that there was something else but everyone else said he was just ‘quirky’. Others could spot the slightly odd formal speech, bluntness to almost being rude but kind of shrugged it off when I asked as ‘Fred’ being ‘Fred’. You don’t have to be rude or tactless you can say something like
’the girls have a great time together and we really enjoy having her here. She is quite direct and forthright and does sometimes forget her manners, it’s never been a problem for us though, is there something you’re concerned about’

Bullshit

I correct them, but I've always taken the approach that while a child is in my care they need to behave themselves, like I expect my child to. So if one of her friends says 'I want food' I say 'did you mean to add a please to that?', or if they throw/break something/get snippy, I stop them and calmly explain why the behaviour isn't acceptable and give them the opportunity to apologise and try again in a different way. If it continues they get the choice to end the play date and go home or to adjust their behaviour and I follow through.

If I've had to address behaviour then I do tell their parent but try to keep it light, because it generally is, we're not talking about serious issues like stealing or anything. So I'll just say 'Annie and Jane had a bit of a spat about who would get to play with what, but we were able to sort it out and Annie apologised for grabbing so it all turned out well in the end." Or 'I had to remind Annie about please and thank yous a couple of times but overall they had a great day.

Although now they're getting older it's starting to be complicated by friends bring their mobile phones round and then sitting and ignoring each other to play on them or sending what i would consider to be inappropriate messages to people (based on what I hear I'm obviously not going through their phones). I did have to contact one mum and let her know that her daughter seemed to be communicating with "some bloke I met on Roblox, he's really funny and says he thinks I'm pretty and he sends me messages all the time....." which raised a few red flags.

I would definitely be telling the mother. And insist on please and thank you in your house. 8 is more than old enough to not need reminding to say it (as is 4)

@Mymanyellow

What's Bullshit. Are you saying the article doesn't exist?

Are you unable to use Google to find the article-it isn't difficult.

Or have you been able to find it but unable to understand it?

It is written quite simply, so if you are having difficulty someone who is passing by should be able to assist you.

Or do you just shout "bullshit" whenever you see or hear something you don't like?

If it's the latter, surely you meant to say "Far Right Bullshit." That is the fashion now, don't you know. It's meant to silence the person you accuse, although it is becoming less effective in that purpose due to overuse.

Now settle down, don't be ignorant and ignorant in both senses of the word. It is very unmannerly.

Is she Swedish? When we moved here, I was astounded that Swedish kids didn't say please or thank you. But when then I started working in a Dagis (day care up to 6) I discovered they are not expected or taught to say please or thank you. Yet the vast majority of adults seem to have good manners ...... Not sure when it kicks in though.

How well do you get on with the mum?

Id say that shes not a problem and the kids had a great time. Dorothy is definitely direct in her requests, but she's only 8. Has someone said something? Have you got a concern? Let me know if you want a chat

Or @Mymanyellow I might have misunderstood you!

If your comment of 'Bullshit' was a remark upon what I had written because you thought I meant it-then I should be clear, I was being sarcastic and holding up that article as an example of nonsense.

In that is the case and you think my remarks on the BBC article were real then I can quite understand you saying Bullshit because that's what I too think it is.

If that's the case I apologise to you. i

Did you tell her off OP, or say something a bit pointed about please and thank you? If so it's possible that the child has complained to her mother - though I agree it's more likely that the mother has worries herself.

Double bullshit.

Seems I’ve misunderstood you too. My apologies.

I'd reflect her language back to her as it's quite specific.

Hi xxx, the playdate went well and both girls had fun. The normal slip in manners just like I have with my DD but nothing outrageous. Although now that you ask, I did notice that she definitely has a demanding and rude streak sometimes, but I'd not have mentioned anything because I'm unphased by it and would certainly welcome her back. Is that helpful? It's difficult age isn't it though with testing boundaries and rules? Is there something you'd like me to do or say that you do at home if I'm presented with that behaviour again? Please don't worry though, here to chat if you want to.

I wouldn't say anything to the mother unless you know her well. Can of worms. I would however tell her child off if she's rude. If kids come around here that's the rules. They get pulled up just like mine do.

If there’s no other major issues, I’d have prompted the girl a few times when in my house to say ‘please’ and ‘thank you’ and not really something I would say to the mum unless she was rude as well.
it takes a village ….. and all that
if there are other behavioural issues then I will be sharing that with mum

She will never keep down a job..End of.

She asked, so clearly has concerns. There are plenty of ways to tell her the truth without being a jerk.

Be honest but tactful. My father used to say if you don't like the answer, don't ask the question. She asked the question, give her the answer, what she does with the information is up to her.

just keep insisting. "say please" and "say thank you"

I disagree. Manners (by the commonly accepted definition of the word) are a component of social values that enable us to get along with each other and live in relative harmony in our ever more crowded civilisations. Being antagonistic/unpleasant reduces the quality of life for everyone, including the perpetrators as they have to deal with the provoked hostile reactions, hence is illogical at best and one definition of a stupid action at worst*. I live by the simple rule of treating other people how I would like to be treated myself, it requires little effort and means I tend to get on with the vast majority of people and form good relationships, which enhances my life. As for not judging people, sorry but no, if you behave like an arsehole and refuse to own it, or don't give a toss because you have worked out there are no consequences (e.g. the annoying cretins that blast their phones out on trains because they can't be bothered to use earphones), I will judge you negatively if there is no possible external issue evident, that is because I have boundaries.

*

Years ago (really, many many years) when I started teaching 7-8yr olds in an inner city setting I used to get really quite angry about how "rude" children could be in their responses. Eventually, I worked out that these kids had no modelling regarding appropriate responses. So, I started saying things like: "Did you know that it's considered quite rude if you say 'xxyyzz' to a grown-up or a teacher?". And they'd say: "No, miss." They simply didn't know. So,I'd say: "Well, it is. And what you could say is: "aabbcc". D'you think you could manage that?"

And, eventually, we'd get there.

It was just as much a lesson for me as for them.

I would prompt her in the same way you’d do with your own child. (E.g. reminding to say please, or saying “you’ve missed an important word at the end there, what was it?”) If she’s young enough I’d sing the please and thank you song 😂
But I’m a teacher so that patronising teaching behaviour comes naturally to me 😝

I would say if she's asked definitely

I agree - because you can’t really accept no manners and then expect your own DC to remember them. My DSs friends were never badly behaved to the extent that I’d need to call parents, but I did suggest it to one child who was a sulker if he didn’t get his own way with the rest of them. Each time he scurried back in the living room and was better, after sitting sulking on the stairs.

If mum is asking she definitely has concerns.
If you are on speaking terms with mum I’d definitely do in person not text.
I suspect at 8 people are becoming less forgiving and perhaps play dates and party invites are dying off.
I’m a volunteer girl guiding leader and in a group setting it’s very obvious that some girls struggle and probably will go on and get a diagnosis. If a parent asks me directly then I prefer to do face to face and use specific examples. It often transpires girl is having issues at school too.
I’d focus on the demanding as that is what mum has raised and give some examples eg Katie tends to say get me a drink.