To be horrified at how much worse the "grooming gangs" actually were than I thought

[OneAmberFinch]

There are several other threads about Elon Musk, Labour, Jess Phillips, etc.

I don't want to discuss them in this thread. The other threads keep getting derailed and I just want a place to discuss how absolutely horrifying the new details that emerged this week are.

I knew that there were "grooming gangs" who would entice girls in care or from broken homes to be their "boyfriends" by giving them cigarettes and vapes, for example.

I didn't know that girls as young as 11 were being brutally tortured and raped, that people had been killed over it, including one policeman who arranged for some of the rapists to get off, houses burnt down. I didn't know the details of the violent gang rapes which I won't repeat here but you can find on X.

I'm just genuinely shocked and horrified.

Some of the court transcripts circulating are from 2013. How did I not know?

And that's a good example.. about culture and religion. I am Irish and I do know that the "religious aspect" is sometimes much more a cultural thing than it is actually about the religion..
Irish Catholicism can often be a cultural identity more than it is a belief or faith of Christianity.
I'm agnostic but I'm still culturally Irish Catholic. I haven't attended mass since my early twenties but I'd be considered Catholic by Irish protestants.

Doubtless many of these men committing these crimes considered themselves Muslim when they will have barely understood what Islam was, it's just a cultural identity.
So no it's not really about Islam.
But yes cultural factors are important..
But they still aren't the reason.
A predatory man will find any reason.
But yes the cultural factors surrounding why they managed to commit the crime and get away with it for so long are important.

But that also applies to being white British. We also need to be looking at the cultural factors in our own society that allowed some people to turn a blind eye to what was occurring here.
And they did!! And it wasn't because no one reported it or no papers reported it.. there was a certain attitude towards working class and vulnerable teenage girls

Let me try again.

What could or should KS as DPP have done differently?

In so far as these cases got as far as the CPS and they declined to prosecute were the extant guidelines followed?

We know those guidelines were re-written so as to move towards a culture of belief rather than doubting the credibility of victims and that was done during KS's time.

Everyone called them slappers.

It's because this is the specific issue people are talking about today.

You didn't have the Epstein prince Andrew threads with cries of but look at x yz.

It's quite glaringly obvious it's a men problem.

But these men are allegedly told by their religion that anyone who isn't Muslim is lesser and inferior.

It seems that within the religion itself,like most, patriarchs and women are inferior
So non Muslim girls are even further down the scale.

How on earth can we tackle that mindset if the allegiance and life rules coupled with a lack of education are ruled by a religion?

I think it's in extremely bad fath to suggest that racial tensions were the only reason that the police didn't take these crimes as seriously as they should..

The man is either completely useless (quite possible) and presided over a monumental failure and just says "but there's nothing to be done about the industrial rapes of our little girls". or he's just not taking responsibility for the mess. Again, quite possible. He's not one to hold his hands up when he's messed up let's face it.

I think it's in extremely bad fath to suggest that racial tensions were the only reason that the police didn't take these crimes as seriously as they should..

Why bad faith?
Btw I don't think that anyone would say it was the sole reason. There was clearly also glaring contempt for the girls themselves, so I suppose a classist element.
But racial tensions were a big factor. No bad faith there, extreme or otherwise.

Women's hour on radio 4 was reporting at the time on this. Parents were interviewed who tried to get help. One was told by Rotherham social services that his daughter had made a "lifestyle choice" to be a prostitute . She was 13.

the whole problem is that Pakistani men view white girls as less than human and the powers that be were scared to investigate because the liberal left would cry racism.

heads need to roll. We need apply laws equally across the UK. Not that long ago the archbishop of Canterbury said certain area of the UK should be under sharia law! The left are hugely to blame and anyone who questions the actions of these men are still viewed as racist

@Thatcastlethere

Quite.
There's deep connected networks at play with family connection, a brotherhood connection, tentacles reaching into the council,the police force everywhere.

Agree.

The UK in its wisdom has done the opposite of Sweden though.

The UK brought in 100k immigrants from Pakistan in the year ending June 2024 (across all long term visa routes).

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/bulletins/longterminternationalmigrationprovisional/yearendingjune2024

As Pakistan is part of the Commonwealth they all have the right to vote immediately, including for local councils. And it's widely known that heads of families will often fill out the postal votes for everyone.

In 2024 there were 4 "Gaza independents" who won seats as MPs, and several more who came very close.

@SleepToad I can't verify who exactly ordered this but apparently police forces were told not too make arrests in 2008 because the girls had made their choices.

The fact that it was even a consideration is appalling. I really don't care how many other lame excuses they also used to justify their inaction.

Was there a monumental failure by the CPS. In how many cases did they refuse to prosecute where in fact, on the rules then in place, it's clear they should have done?

My impression is that it was the police rather than the CPS that failed to act.

@OneAmberFinch caveat.
Those are the ones we know about,look at Sarah Sharif's killer,he worked our system and deliberately targeted vulnerable polish girls to marry to get in and then family members follow.

Once a root is established it seems it's very easy to bring lots of family in especially with cousin marriage.

I had a similar experience to these girls but my abuser was white and mostly acted alone. But there were plenty of men around. And plenty of teen girls.
The police saw me as responsible. As did my family. As did school and social services. I remember a police sergeant screaming at me once.
As you say as if I must have been responsible in part. I was certainly not seen as a victim, more the perpetrator and I got very good at hiding my injuries. I completely agree with you that this is how it’s been portrayed to us all. It was even portrayed to me as the victim. I fully believed it was my fault.

I understand that.
and you’re right I did merge two topics, the first part still stands. There’s a really significant portion of women abusers of children both as infants/toddlers AND as primary/secondary age children.

again, just for the avoidance of doubt as I’ve seen someone mention, in no way I want to derail the conversation from what we’re discussing because these girls have been ignored enough and as a society we have failed them!

however I personally really dislike when some people go on a personal crusade of “all men” abusers are of both genders sadly and we often have this perception that a woman is safe vs a man which is quite not the case and it’s important to remember that in a conversation like this, as we don’t want to wake up another 20yrs from now realising we accidentally allowed some abuse to pass by because of perception..
(I hope this makes sense, as it’s just a stream of thought)

@Bromptotoo in excerpts from the select committee, KS was asked why there was not one single prosecution from X to x.

He said that was damming.

KS said at the time it was reliable witness rules that caused issues.

Apparently he then changed those rules.

Well Keir has admitted his failures himself so probably should resign if he had integrity. But, as we've since since July, he hasn't so he won't.

I think it's in extremely bad fath to suggest that racial tensions were the only reason that the police didn't take these crimes as seriously as they should..

It was said at the time - that there would be race riots if the information became widely known. However I didn't suggest it was the only reason. The class element has been widely discussed & was always apparent. Working class white, black and brown girls/women rank amongst the very lowest for consideration in UK society.

My parents white and are well to do, very big in church. I was middle class. Still a victim.
However I was vulnerable for different reasons. So this rings true.
I was still treated like I was some scum, purely because I was a teen girl so must have been responsible for the desires and actions of grown men.
It’s the view of women and girls not just vulnerable or working class girls. Oh and some of the worst were women for holding up the patriarchal views, the shame heaped on was all by women.. teachers, church, social workers. My mum and aunts.

@321user123

Of course a small % of women abuse but look at facts.
Look at journalist pretending too be drunk and gets predatory men sniffing around her,look at the french lady raped and dragged by her own husband etc

OP you’re having what feels a very strange swing here..

What’s the issue with Gaza independents?
Are you worried of finally having politicians that WILL fight to change the UK for the better?

@Thatcastlethere

In my small sample of personal experience every single Muslim we' know has anyone far greater and deeper connection to the religion than any practising catholic or c of e. The family ties etc are much more strong and pressure.

This is a faith you can't easily and freely leave or say bad things about.

You’re stuck in a peppercorn, I never said men don’t abuse or that men aren’t the majority of perpetrators.

i explained in my rather lengthy comment why it’s dangerous to maintain a perspective of only few women abuse.

Hilarious.