To be horrified at how much worse the "grooming gangs" actually were than I thought

[OneAmberFinch]

There are several other threads about Elon Musk, Labour, Jess Phillips, etc.

I don't want to discuss them in this thread. The other threads keep getting derailed and I just want a place to discuss how absolutely horrifying the new details that emerged this week are.

I knew that there were "grooming gangs" who would entice girls in care or from broken homes to be their "boyfriends" by giving them cigarettes and vapes, for example.

I didn't know that girls as young as 11 were being brutally tortured and raped, that people had been killed over it, including one policeman who arranged for some of the rapists to get off, houses burnt down. I didn't know the details of the violent gang rapes which I won't repeat here but you can find on X.

I'm just genuinely shocked and horrified.

Some of the court transcripts circulating are from 2013. How did I not know?

It's not either/or.

Which part of “I agree that there should be an inquiry, and the racism/anti-racism angle explored.” don’t you understand?

But it’s okay to rape white girls as long as you’re a white man, eh?

https://x.com/SAshworthHayes/status/1875559756573896807

Another horrific tweet today from the Telegraphs Sam Ashworth Hayes...

The problem is there's a lot of terrorist activity from the far right and events like this are perfect fodder.
The police clearly didn't handle it well but you can't fault them for having trepidation.
You won't help the matter if there are lunatics gunning down Muslims or smashing up streets.

Yes it is. Everyone is equal before the law. Or should be.

I do think the response to this shouldn't be agnostic to the religious and cultural elements though. Community links and covering for each other was a big part of the story. What is it about the specific cultural groups in Telford, Rotherham etc - and maybe even just "Pakistani Muslim" is not specific enough, were they part of a particularly patriarchal sect of Islam? Etc. What is it about their culture that led to these horrors.

In cases like the Catholic church the majority of white British people have enough "background knowledge" to know about the respected role that priests have, how proud you might be to have your son as an altar boy etc. I don't know if that's true of these cases.

But the message that’s coming across on this thread is that people don’t have an issue with abuse by white people.

I suppose that's a convenient interpretation if your intention is to shut down discussion by implying people are only interested in this particular issue because they are racist.

I recall people being furious that the BBC appeared to have covered up the Saville scandal after enabling his abusing for years.

What I meant was your presentation of girls v community cohesion as binary is false.

I'm saying that community cohesion shouldn't come before prosecuting people who commit rape. Which is exactly what has happened.

I dunno. There would probably be fewer girls being raped and tortured.

Oh fgs open your eyes

The problem is there's a lot of terrorist activity from the far right and events like this are perfect fodder.

Genuine question. What organised recent terrorist activity from the Far Right is there?

On the contrary, I very much do fault them for 'having trepidation'. They're the fucking police,.it's what we pay them for! Without fear or favour.

They chose public order over raped children. They know it was a choice and they chose, there are examples in the article already linked on the thread that they knew what they were choosing. So yes I do fault the police, and local councils, for choosing community relations over abused girls.

@Nordione1
I have tagged you and it's not letting me de tag you , apologies.

I think it's clear we' have a massive problem with some men.

We know the UK and other modern western democracy have deep issues still, with ingrained misogyny, violence rape and murder.

As a society we try and address it through school, legislation, etc.
How on earth can we continue to move forward to a better safer society when we are importing in a huge volume of men from a Very different culture which doesn't respect women?

Assimilation requires small numbers and push and pull to adhere to local laws.

This is the crux of the problem
Like I was saying these gangs were operating in same time frame as 16 year olds wee posing topless in the sun.
We try to blame another culture but our white British culture has as much to answer for. Regarding why the crimes weren't taken as seriously as they should be at the time.
And we do need to open it out to talk about grooming and abuse by white male perpetrators.. as sadly the only reason these stories have becomes as notable as they have is because they included mainly attacks on white girls by non white men.
And sadly there's a fair portion of the antry response that don't give two shits about women and girls really.. especially vulnerable teen girls who don't meet the perfect victim profile.. they give a shit about brown men doing something they can express hate about.

Really we should be talking about 'the perfect victim' and how abuse of teen girls is often not taken seriously.

Not bleating on about Islam.

I understand there were racial elements in some cases and that needs a review.. the line between creating racial tensions and properly investigating crimes needs looking at. Obviously these cases need going over to learn from mistakes. Definitely mistakes were made.

But it's not helpful to focus on the racial element alone. The real problem was the way ALL OF SOCIETY IN THE UK viewed teenage girls at this time. Especially underclass teenage girls.

And still do. Look at the Prince abdrew stuff. Look under any article and you'll get a horrific amount of comments from men and women, mostly white, blaming the girls.. "she was 16 she knew what was going on" "she accepted gifts she knew she'd be expected to have sex" etc etc etc

@Thatcastlethere you are confusing races and religion.

The perps here are mainly south Asian Pakistani Muslim.

But the main point is that the police do not operate a "hands off" policy unless the perpetrators are Asian Muslims and the victims are not in a protected category (unlike Muslims themselves).

Yes, people were furious! But what has actually come of it? Who knew? Who has been punished?

People being furious is not a punishment and it won’t stop it happening. Justin Welby has just stepped down as Archbishop of Canterbury because he allegedly knew and was complicit in covering up an abuser. And what? Does that mean there is no more child abuse in the CoE?

My point is that this is a much bigger problem than JUST Muslim sex gangs. The problem is all sex gangs and all institutional sex abuse.

Of course white men commit most child sexual exploitation, because we live in a majority white country. Most child abuse in Japan is unsurprisingly committed by ethnic Japanese.

I was referring specifically to organised rape gangs, where the evidence we do have is pretty damning: https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-grooming-gangs

No the big problem is a two tier legal system where the police will prosecute only some rapists and paedophiles as long as it doesn't upset a particular "community".

I was responding to the point about people not having an issue with white abusers when that is clearly false.

The fact that the police response to all types of sexual abuse is woefully inadequate is a different issue.

I'm not.
I'm adressing that there are many posters on this thread wanting to discuss Islam and its impact.
There were cultural factors at play in these crimes. But Islam is not the cause of these crimes its irrelevant.
The cultural identity of the perpetrators may have had an impact on how the police handled these specific situations, and that does obviously need review.
But it's just not helpful to try and make these types of crimes about Islam in any way for reasons I have said over and over.
Nor does it help to make it a cultural issue in general when the majority of these types of crimes across the UK are carried out by white British men.
There's reason to look at the impact the cultural element had on the investigation of some of these crimes, obviously.

If it comes to the Catholic Church its moral authority has collapsed; people no longer go in the way they once did. The head of the Church of England has just resigned because of one paedophile operating in plain sight.

These cases are disgusting in Rotherham, Telford, and Oxford. There is even less accountability here; it’s because sexual violence against children is barely prosecuted, particularly for children who are vulnerable. These offenders don’t worry about community cohesion. They aren’t worried by the authorities either. Because really no one cares about these children; you can see a few well motivated people trying, but you can’t systematically protect children based on that.

The reason governments don’t publish stats in ethnicity in crime is not because they don’t know. It’s because the fear is it will cause a riot.

"ALL OF SOCIETY IN THE UK" did not think that anally raping 11 year olds or dousing them in petrol was okay, actually.

@ContactNightmare The reason governments don’t publish stats in ethnicity in crime is not because they don’t know. It’s because the fear is it will cause a riot.

Yes!