Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Happy Elon Musk calling out govt over grooming gang PT 2

1000 replies

Chainzreaction · 03/01/2025 14:20

Pt 2 can commence!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
50
Lightswitchup · 04/01/2025 10:55

You would hope that in the more recent cases professionals would be investigated, examined against their professional standards and disciplined where necessary. That should absolutely happen, but would not be within the scope of an inquiry.

marmaladeandpeanutbutter · 04/01/2025 10:58

A feminist issue?? You're joking, clearly. Amy can see that feminism is far from his mind, or that of his boss.

poetryandwine · 04/01/2025 11:03

SerendipityJane · 04/01/2025 10:39

Hitchens law applies, of course.

This is with reference to the extrapolated claim of 250,000 girls abused by grooming gangs made by UKIP member Lord Pearson of Rannoch.

Otherwise known as Hitchens’ Razor, it states that

That which is asserted without evidence nat be dismissed without evidence

If I assert that the moon is made of green cheese without presenting evidence, the burden of proof does not lie on you. Same for Lord Pearson’s claim.

itsgettingweird · 04/01/2025 11:03

Someone up thread (sorry cannot remember who) said by teaching young girls to spot the signs of grooming you are victim blaming.

I don't agree.

If a child is groomed they are a victim. But we should not be waiting for them to be victims whilst we try and infiltrate and disperse these gangs without education about spotting the signs alongside.

The same way as if as an adult you are scammed. We are told about scams, about clicking links etc. if you are scammed you are a victim. But by telling people how to avoid Scams we aren't pre emptively victim blaming them we are trying to prevent people become victims.

Remembering that the more people who don't get scammed and conned and don't get groomed the less reason there is for this business model to continue.

Young girls need to spot the signs abusers use. They need to spot they are being abused long before they are raped. They need to spot they are being groomed first and that is abuse.

But importantly they need to know who to report it too and that they will be listened to, taken seriously and protected from further harm.

It's not fair to allow people to be raped because by teaching them how to spot any reg flags is seen as victim blaming. That's as bad as ignoring perpetrators for fear of being branded racist or similar.

DuncinToffee · 04/01/2025 11:08

Musk and feminism 😅

Did anyone see his tweet about c-sections and brain size?

poetryandwine · 04/01/2025 11:11

poetryandwine · 04/01/2025 11:03

This is with reference to the extrapolated claim of 250,000 girls abused by grooming gangs made by UKIP member Lord Pearson of Rannoch.

Otherwise known as Hitchens’ Razor, it states that

That which is asserted without evidence nat be dismissed without evidence

If I assert that the moon is made of green cheese without presenting evidence, the burden of proof does not lie on you. Same for Lord Pearson’s claim.

Edit: That which is asserted without evidence MAY be dismissed without evidence.

GiveMeSpanakopita · 04/01/2025 11:11

marmaladeandpeanutbutter · 04/01/2025 10:58

A feminist issue?? You're joking, clearly. Amy can see that feminism is far from his mind, or that of his boss.

I do strongly believe it is a feminist issue. Protecting women and girls from male violence and exploitation is a key tenet of feminism. There's also an intersection here of feminism and classism, as most victims were from disadvantaged socio-economic backgrounds, or already survivors of trauma, which make a woman or girl especially vulnerable to male violence. Also as a result of their socio-economic status, I believe the victims were ignored and gaslight by police and social services who regarded them as somehow already 'damaged goods' and therefore not worth saving. Andrea Dworkin wrote extensively about how the 'damaged goods' and 'promiscuity' tropes lead to intersectional oppression of female victim due to the double oppression, firstly from the predator and secondly from the indifference of police, social services, local authorities and policy makers. Julie Bindel is also very good on this.

So in conclusion, yes, I do think it's a feminist issue. I don't know whether Musk sees it this way and to be frank I don't care. I'm really pleased that since Wednesday 1 January he has been using his international platform to put a spotlight on it.

I've honestly seen more outrage from British feminists over the plight of women in Afghanistan than I have over this. I saw more feminist thinkpieces about Sarah Everard, or Jane Austen on banknotes, than over this decades long abuse. And whilst the plight of Afghan women MUST be highlighted, and Jane Austen is....cool, I guess, we need to put our own house in order before we look at others' houses so to speak.

OneAmberFinch · 04/01/2025 11:15

@itsgettingweird I do agree with your point, and would tell my own daughter what to look out for, but I think it obscures some of the more substantive challenges in these cases.

Firstly the targeted girls often came from broken home situations - potentially not in school or living in a situation where they wouldn't receive these messages.

Secondly there often wasn't someone they could safely tell. I read several cases yesterday of girls going to the police or the council only to find that their abuser had been tipped off. In one horrible case, that she was told that her abuser had her sister - so she dropped her complaint.

This is what many people are angry about - that although individual gang members may have been prosecuted, members of the same community who covered for them - I mean blatantly were corrupt, not even just the do-gooders who looked the other way for diversity reasons - are almost certainly still in place.

From the Telegraph piece this morning on the coverup:

Politicians were terrified [of the impact on] community cohesion. This nervousness meant that there was “a sense that it was the Pakistani heritage Councillors who alone ‘dealt’ with that community”, with their having a “disproportionate influence” on the council: as one witness put it, “[my] experience of council as it was and is – Asian men very powerful, and the white British are very mindful of racism and frightened of racism allegations so there is no robust challenge”. Other concerns may have been even more sinister. In 2016, it was reported that a victim of grooming in Rotherham had alleged that she was raped by a town councillor.

DuncinToffee · 04/01/2025 11:15

GiveMeSpanakopita · 04/01/2025 11:11

I do strongly believe it is a feminist issue. Protecting women and girls from male violence and exploitation is a key tenet of feminism. There's also an intersection here of feminism and classism, as most victims were from disadvantaged socio-economic backgrounds, or already survivors of trauma, which make a woman or girl especially vulnerable to male violence. Also as a result of their socio-economic status, I believe the victims were ignored and gaslight by police and social services who regarded them as somehow already 'damaged goods' and therefore not worth saving. Andrea Dworkin wrote extensively about how the 'damaged goods' and 'promiscuity' tropes lead to intersectional oppression of female victim due to the double oppression, firstly from the predator and secondly from the indifference of police, social services, local authorities and policy makers. Julie Bindel is also very good on this.

So in conclusion, yes, I do think it's a feminist issue. I don't know whether Musk sees it this way and to be frank I don't care. I'm really pleased that since Wednesday 1 January he has been using his international platform to put a spotlight on it.

I've honestly seen more outrage from British feminists over the plight of women in Afghanistan than I have over this. I saw more feminist thinkpieces about Sarah Everard, or Jane Austen on banknotes, than over this decades long abuse. And whilst the plight of Afghan women MUST be highlighted, and Jane Austen is....cool, I guess, we need to put our own house in order before we look at others' houses so to speak.

He tweedted that Home Office Minister Jess Phillips "deserves to be in prison" and labelled her a "rape genocide apologist"

You are pleased with that?

OneAmberFinch · 04/01/2025 11:17

DuncinToffee · 04/01/2025 11:15

He tweedted that Home Office Minister Jess Phillips "deserves to be in prison" and labelled her a "rape genocide apologist"

You are pleased with that?

Yeah he said some angry things about one woman.

Meanwhile thousands of girls were raped.

Scale is not the same.

SerendipityJane · 04/01/2025 11:19

OneAmberFinch · 04/01/2025 11:17

Yeah he said some angry things about one woman.

Meanwhile thousands of girls were raped.

Scale is not the same.

So the end justifies the means.

Righty ho.

DuncinToffee · 04/01/2025 11:20

OneAmberFinch · 04/01/2025 11:17

Yeah he said some angry things about one woman.

Meanwhile thousands of girls were raped.

Scale is not the same.

Some angry things?

You agree with him then?

OneAmberFinch · 04/01/2025 11:22

I will say that if I were Jess Phillips I'd be utterly terrified of becoming the next David Amess if she says the wrong thing about the Muslim community. I think it's awful of Starmer to put her in this position and in this spotlight knowing that since the first ten minutes of this current term she has been facing attacks by Muslim men angry that their candidate was not elected. I hope she has security.

Musk is wrong to pin the blame on her.

He should focus on the electoral and policing circumstances that are so severely constraining her.

Fwiw I don't particularly stan for her but I do think she does care about women and girls.

GiveMeSpanakopita · 04/01/2025 11:23

DuncinToffee · 04/01/2025 11:15

He tweedted that Home Office Minister Jess Phillips "deserves to be in prison" and labelled her a "rape genocide apologist"

You are pleased with that?

No, but I'm glad overall with the spotlight he's shining.

It's like with Israel-Gaza, I'm pleased with the spotlight Owen Jones is shining on the genocide, even though I disagree with some of the specific things he's said, for example his doubts that 7/10 took place in the way it did.

Another example would be the murder of George Floyd, I strongly agreed with the spotlight shone on it and partook in the marches even though I didn't agree with what some commentators said, that it showed that all white people are racist.

I don't always agree with everything a spokesperson said but if on the whole I feel it's an important issue that needs spotlighted, then on balance I strongly support the spotlight on the issue.

Chainzreaction · 04/01/2025 11:23

Lightswitchup · 04/01/2025 10:34

They possibly were not very well trained. To go back and look at every professional involved in this to attempt to prove some criminal liability would be an enormous job, take many, many years and probably extremely difficult to prove anyway. And then they would have to revisit every single historical case of CSE or child abuse in the country not only because there were brown men involved, because it wouldn’t be fair only to focus on only one group of victims?

For me it isn’t necessarily about individual professionals and their fuck ups, sometimes it is of course, but largely it’s because they work within a culture where is has become acceptable to write some people off or fail to act because ‘lifestyle choices’. Unfortunately this also includes children at times. It is a problem within our own British culture as much as anything.

But Labour could change legislation to ensure that failure to safeguard will lead to prosecution?

OP posts:
OneAmberFinch · 04/01/2025 11:25

DuncinToffee · 04/01/2025 11:20

Some angry things?

You agree with him then?

See my last post for a more full explanation but I think we should have more headlines about the rape gangs themselves than about what Elon Musk tweeted.

His opinion on who should be imprisoned in the UK is irrelevant so he can say what he wants.

I don't think Jess Phillips should be imprisoned. I think someone else should be in charge of this issue though.

SerendipityJane · 04/01/2025 11:25

GiveMeSpanakopita · 04/01/2025 11:23

No, but I'm glad overall with the spotlight he's shining.

It's like with Israel-Gaza, I'm pleased with the spotlight Owen Jones is shining on the genocide, even though I disagree with some of the specific things he's said, for example his doubts that 7/10 took place in the way it did.

Another example would be the murder of George Floyd, I strongly agreed with the spotlight shone on it and partook in the marches even though I didn't agree with what some commentators said, that it showed that all white people are racist.

I don't always agree with everything a spokesperson said but if on the whole I feel it's an important issue that needs spotlighted, then on balance I strongly support the spotlight on the issue.

Interesting to speculate how far "agreement" goes before it becomes "complicit"

Chainzreaction · 04/01/2025 11:26

Lightswitchup · 04/01/2025 10:55

You would hope that in the more recent cases professionals would be investigated, examined against their professional standards and disciplined where necessary. That should absolutely happen, but would not be within the scope of an inquiry.

Absolutely & as I said above have legislation in place to prosecute any negligence. Most adults know that the legal age for consent is 16. End of. Many of the children involved were younger. There most be no exceptions ever.

OP posts:
DuncinToffee · 04/01/2025 11:27

OneAmberFinch · 04/01/2025 11:25

See my last post for a more full explanation but I think we should have more headlines about the rape gangs themselves than about what Elon Musk tweeted.

His opinion on who should be imprisoned in the UK is irrelevant so he can say what he wants.

I don't think Jess Phillips should be imprisoned. I think someone else should be in charge of this issue though.

You agree that he tweeted a bit more than some angry stuff then, he tweeted outright dangerous stuff

But hey, he can say what he wants Hmm

DuncinToffee · 04/01/2025 11:28

SerendipityJane · 04/01/2025 11:25

Interesting to speculate how far "agreement" goes before it becomes "complicit"

Indeed

PeppyGreenFinch · 04/01/2025 11:30

itsgettingweird · 04/01/2025 11:03

Someone up thread (sorry cannot remember who) said by teaching young girls to spot the signs of grooming you are victim blaming.

I don't agree.

If a child is groomed they are a victim. But we should not be waiting for them to be victims whilst we try and infiltrate and disperse these gangs without education about spotting the signs alongside.

The same way as if as an adult you are scammed. We are told about scams, about clicking links etc. if you are scammed you are a victim. But by telling people how to avoid Scams we aren't pre emptively victim blaming them we are trying to prevent people become victims.

Remembering that the more people who don't get scammed and conned and don't get groomed the less reason there is for this business model to continue.

Young girls need to spot the signs abusers use. They need to spot they are being abused long before they are raped. They need to spot they are being groomed first and that is abuse.

But importantly they need to know who to report it too and that they will be listened to, taken seriously and protected from further harm.

It's not fair to allow people to be raped because by teaching them how to spot any reg flags is seen as victim blaming. That's as bad as ignoring perpetrators for fear of being branded racist or similar.

Two of the people procuring girls for the rapists were white women.

Karen MacGregor, 58, who had worked in taxi offices in the town, created KinKids, a community support group for kinship carers, in 2013, and was well respected. ‘She was an energetic, high-profile campaigner on behalf of abused children’. But she was actually luring girls to her home for CSE.

‘One victim told how, within days of arriving, she was plied with vodka and passed out – then woke to find herself being sexually assaulted after being taken upstairs by MacGregor and others’.

What chance did these girls have against this?

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/feb/26/woman-offered-safe-haven-to-troubled-girls-then-pimped-them-out

OneAmberFinch · 04/01/2025 11:31

DuncinToffee · 04/01/2025 11:27

You agree that he tweeted a bit more than some angry stuff then, he tweeted outright dangerous stuff

But hey, he can say what he wants Hmm

To be clear, I think the danger to Jess Phillips comes from Muslim men in her constituency, who have already shouted at and threatened her, if she dares to call these "Pakistani Muslim child rape and torture gangs" instead of something generic about "men".

I don't think she's at significant risk from white nationalists who follow Elon Musk, nor that his tweets have materially increased that risk. I think they see her as a pawn and not the person making the decisions.

Chainzreaction · 04/01/2025 11:38

PeppyGreenFinch · 04/01/2025 11:30

Two of the people procuring girls for the rapists were white women.

Karen MacGregor, 58, who had worked in taxi offices in the town, created KinKids, a community support group for kinship carers, in 2013, and was well respected. ‘She was an energetic, high-profile campaigner on behalf of abused children’. But she was actually luring girls to her home for CSE.

‘One victim told how, within days of arriving, she was plied with vodka and passed out – then woke to find herself being sexually assaulted after being taken upstairs by MacGregor and others’.

What chance did these girls have against this?

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/feb/26/woman-offered-safe-haven-to-troubled-girls-then-pimped-them-out

That makes for horrific reading Peppy😥

OP posts:
PeppyGreenFinch · 04/01/2025 11:40

OneAmberFinch · 04/01/2025 11:31

To be clear, I think the danger to Jess Phillips comes from Muslim men in her constituency, who have already shouted at and threatened her, if she dares to call these "Pakistani Muslim child rape and torture gangs" instead of something generic about "men".

I don't think she's at significant risk from white nationalists who follow Elon Musk, nor that his tweets have materially increased that risk. I think they see her as a pawn and not the person making the decisions.

Jo Cox MP was murdered by far right terrorist Thomas Mair.

Elon Musks tweets are extremely dangerous for Jess Phillips.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/nov/23/thomas-mair-found-guilty-of-jo-cox-murder

Far-right terrorist Thomas Mair jailed for life for Jo Cox murder

Unemployed gardener, 53, given whole-life sentence for murder of MP that judge said was inspired by white supremacism

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/nov/23/thomas-mair-found-guilty-of-jo-cox-murder

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.