To think the British educational system is all wrong?

[CookiePlough]

It seems like the aim is to make adults out of children as soon as possible rather than allowing them enough time to just be kids.

My main issues are that 1. kids start school way too early and 2. spend way too much time in school.

What is the purpose of a 4 year old child learning to read and write and do addition and subtraction? How does this help the child either in the present or in the future when they are an adult? I can see that 4 year olds are clearly capable of learning these things and of course being able to read or do simple arithmetic is not a problem. The problem is what are they missing out on in order to learn these skills? In my opinion they are missing out on playing. Unstructured, self determined playing. You can learn academics at a later age but you can't really make up for not getting enough playtime as a child. However, this wouldn't be a problem if the school day wasn't so ridiculously long. There just isn't enough time to play after school. There is no time to go anywhere after school (eg the park), for playdates, for any play that takes longer than an hour, to do extra curricular activities (without missing out on Unstructured play time) or anything else. Everything has to be done on the weekend but then when do you have time to do things as a family?

I understand most kids have 2 parents working full time so kids need to be in some sort of childcare setting but even nursery is preferable at thst age to school as there is more unstructured play and more adult supervision. School requires much more in terms of social skills, resilience etc. Which kids,should learn but not by suddenly being dropped in it.

I'm just ranting because I'm tired and upset rather than explaining my points properly. And it's not like I can change the system. I just feel so sad that kids are missing out on being kids. It's not the worst childhood obviously but it's also not as good as it could be.

Why is there a correlation between a unionised workforce and a loss of status in the UK? That seems like such a strange thing to me. Unions are very very normal in Finland, I don't know anyone who isn't in one. Teachers have a union, and they go on strike, yet they don't lose status here.

We moved from English system to Welsh - eldest was Y6 and frankly she had a much better year without SATS with stress than her peers left in English system.

However overall Welsh systems is behind English outcomes - I think Scotland is as well now having once been better - not sure on N.I and how much they differ - I know GCSE wise it's a mix of English GCSE and their own exam board - or was a few years ago.

Beyond that it's hard to know how much is the system being different and how much the individual schools they attend were different.

I do think reading and maths teaching in their primary was too much and not enough school catch up when they were young - mine were all summer born with problems - neither system wanted to address.

I do think entire system of schooling not great but there are things I prefer with Welsh exam system and things I dislike. I think the entire sector is stalling under teacher storages extreme work loads and ever increasing parental expectations on schools and government ever changing demands on schools.

Though even my struggling summer born kids could with extra support at home learn some reading and maths and once over hurdles actively enjoyed doing so and felt empowered. So don't think waiting till 7 is best - though perhaps there are better ways of teaching to such young kids.

@Meadowfinch that's bullshit. It's not taboo to ask that ? It's not really the kids who have been in nursery who don't have the life skills it's the drongos who have kids and think parenting is staring at social media on their screens. You see them everywhere children getting totally ignored because parents are in their phones it's everywhere you go.

Yes, @TizerorFizz , Estonians do take very young DC but I could not find the proportion that attend before age 5. I think it is excellent that what I would call ‘nursery teachers’ at home - I don’t think there is a mainstream British equivalent - hold degrees.

I am interested in the similarities between Estonia and the ROI. One I forgot to mention is that on the PISA both have high floors - the weakest pupils are doing relatively well, along with the strongest. That’s a big measure if success in my book.

Both countries have a national curriculum to some extent but enshrine autonomy also. At least formally. It is a marked contrast to the UK.

Your DDs and many other DC who love to read are exposed to lots of reading at home. The appreciation of language gained thereby may implicitly provide the whole language side of the Irish approach, no?

Estonia is the overall European success story of PISA but the ROI is the really remarkable story for literacy.

Getting rid of older teachers seems to be a fairly recent thing. Years of excellent evaluations, then suddenly the teacher can do nothing right. The stories I have heard are harrowing. They tend to feature (very) young, inexperienced Heads and budget crises also.

In no way am I suggesting that every young Head is incompetent, but I think the burden of being open to the value of experience - whilst persuading your staff that Because We’ve Always Done It That Way isn’t a good justification for anything - is one that few know how to bear.

You’re choosing to spend half a day on a KS1 poster at the weekend - if isn’t necessary. 20 minutes will be fine.

Why is your journey to school so long - 45 minutes is unusual in primary?

@Natsku Im suggesting there’s been a shift in this country. Look at nhs professions. Lots say they aren’t respected but it’s highly unionized. Most unionized workers are in the public sector and they are more likely to say they are not valued.
@LittleBearPad My DC never did posters I bYR or Y1. We had reading and some maths. Took hardly any time at all. A posted is surely optional for infants? I think the op needs to look at the homework policy (what is homework for?) and not take so much time getting to school.

@poetryandwine Estonian parents also pay for kindergarten education. It’s a proportion of the minimum wage. We expect excellence for free. I also think the curriculum in Estonia is prescriptive but not in how it’s delivered. However with a highly educated workforce this is likely to have good outcomes. I also think most dc here are happy with school. I used a prep for DD2 from age 8 and DD actually enjoyed her homework and it never took too long. It’s also barely necessary either.

I agree HW is not much of a necessity in the early years, @TizerorFizz . I suspect the fact that parents pay for kindergarten, albeit it is subsidised, is part of the reason I didn’t easily find attendance figures and perhaps this is why.

I agree with your characterisation of a prescriptive curriculum and freedom on teaching methods (to the extent of my limited understanding). I think that characterises both Estonia and the ROI. It sounds good to me.

Surely the question of unionised workers is complex. If they are mostly public sector, surely that has something to do with the decimation of our manufacturing base. In the private sector unions provide necessary protections from greedy bosses - in America they led the fight to protect workers from asbestos related diseases. Was not the same true here? The Americans who gripe about the ‘high salaries’ of unionised employees tend to be doing very well themselves. It always feels to me like pulling up the ladder behind you.

I wish unions weren’t necessary and I know. they can be overdemanding. Some bosses are awful. But I just read that today, 6 Jan, the average FTSE 100 CEO has earned the pay of (mostly) his average worker. I believe in capitalism, but that is unbridled greed. It isn’t good for society. We have the rivers, the trains, the schools, the industry and the health system to show for it. Apologies for the rant.

Edit: some union bosses can be awful. (Also others of course)

@poetryandwine In 1979 we had a high of 13.2 million union members. Yes, all sorts of industries represented. Now it’s 6.3 million and a far higher proportion in public sector or utilities. Public sector numbers over 6 million so it’s clear to see a correlation. In many highly paid sectors of work there is low union membership. Unscrupulous bosses might exist but most are not and not sure this is ever the case in the public sector with better pensions, maternity and employment benefits.

A depressing shift in the country. Unions are important and should be supported, without them we would have very poor working conditions. At least three quarters of workers are in a union in Finland, across all sectors, don't think there is any sector that doesn't have a union, so while people might grumble at strikes that effect them, they still respect them. The UK is heading down the wrong road with unions.

Agreed.

I imagine it is optional - at most a quick drawing would be more than enough. It’s possible OP’s child’s teacher is a bit more creative than my own who were more like yours - bit of handwriting etc. Either way I think they’d be horrified to find out half a day was being spent on anything they set.

@LittleBearPad Yes I think so too. Teachers were clear that homework was not meant to be a burden and what a poster does to aid understanding of a subject is questionable. It’s a lazy homework in my view. Practicing maths learned, writing, reading and being read to are more important in small amounts.

Posters are endemic as school work, homework, easy cover lesson and something to put on the wall, all the way through primary and well into secondary. I’m never sure they add anything much to a child’s learning.

@Catsnap We avoided the waste of time they seem to be. Parents should ask what the value of the homework is. A good homework policy should be clear what a child should gain. Posters seem like directed art at home.

Agree with OP. My strong willed youngest son has been ejected from the uk system at age 5. I'm just realising how bloody clever he is, we've had to follow a different path and much as I've fought everything while championing him I'm just coming around to realising that forced home ed is the best thing for him (why they label us as elective I've not idea). My oldest went through the independent system with no issues. My strong willed soul is never going to be a sheep and therefore the system is irrelevant to him, I can only admire that, I fully expect him to thrive. The uk education system? Not so much.

When I hear what homework is like in primary schools these days (as opposed to my day, when the only homework we got was timestable practice, in year 6), with things like making posters, build a model tudor house or iron age village or various other models, I'm thinking maybe they don't have the time (with the ridiculous curriculum these days) or resources in the schools to do art properly or as much as they need to, so they're outsourcing it to home? Art and creative activities are important subjects so they need to be done, but they ought to be done in school, where they should have the resources necessary, but with budget cuts maybe not.

Art should n be able to be dropped fairly quickly in a curriculum imho. If you can get 15 million dollars for taking a banana to a wall I think you really need to question where art is a human skill in 2025. Modern art at least is very much subjective and children do get confused about the artistic merit of modern art as opposed to the great masters. Indeed what is art?

art primarily is a hobby as very very few children will make a living directly from something artistic and even then the salary paid is very much dependent on the centuries of the market (look at van Gogh at the time).

it's often a subject that if a child does not have some outstanding talent can be no need at GCSE and in my opinion should be earlier to make way for focus on maths, English and STEM if need be.

my children aren't great artists and I haven't been worried since they brought back plethoras of paintings in reception class. In no way does it make you non academic if you can't produce great art.

The most successful in arts, music, etc., often have no actual schooling/qualifications - the artists creating multi million pound artworks usually don’t even have a gcse in art. Likewise some of the most successful musicians/singers/songwriters can’t even read sheet music and have had no formal training. And it’s only the tiny minority of probably 0.0001% who hit the big time. There is very little correlation between formal arts/music qualifications and Worldwide acclaim/success. The vast majority of those who get qualifications in the arts don’t use them beyond hobbies.

You could suggest art is promoted by schools but there should be questions whether it is a subject that can be marked objectively when it is really very subjective. What is Dmain Horse had cut up his shadow at the wrong angle, how do you judge?

It's a real shame because I know some technically good people who can draw but is drawing an art form and who judges now? We don't have the society to produce or find art as in the renaissance.

Music again should not waste school resources and curriculum when again it is only the very few brilliant people who can make a realistic career out of the subject. The brilliance of musicians is often shown at an early age and is something possibly imate and therefore difficult to teach to a truly brilliant level.

It's like asking how many elite athletes did GCSE PE? Even if they did the subject of probably made very little difference to their careers. Similarly with music.

Art and music are important not because of potential jobs related to them but because how studying them affects the brain and the cultural knowledge and value they bring to the classroom.

You have an extraordinarily reductive idea of education.

Singing is an important collective, bonding activity.

All year 7s sing (to a good level) in my school. It's part of their "broad and balanced education".