To think the British educational system is all wrong?

[CookiePlough]

It seems like the aim is to make adults out of children as soon as possible rather than allowing them enough time to just be kids.

My main issues are that 1. kids start school way too early and 2. spend way too much time in school.

What is the purpose of a 4 year old child learning to read and write and do addition and subtraction? How does this help the child either in the present or in the future when they are an adult? I can see that 4 year olds are clearly capable of learning these things and of course being able to read or do simple arithmetic is not a problem. The problem is what are they missing out on in order to learn these skills? In my opinion they are missing out on playing. Unstructured, self determined playing. You can learn academics at a later age but you can't really make up for not getting enough playtime as a child. However, this wouldn't be a problem if the school day wasn't so ridiculously long. There just isn't enough time to play after school. There is no time to go anywhere after school (eg the park), for playdates, for any play that takes longer than an hour, to do extra curricular activities (without missing out on Unstructured play time) or anything else. Everything has to be done on the weekend but then when do you have time to do things as a family?

I understand most kids have 2 parents working full time so kids need to be in some sort of childcare setting but even nursery is preferable at thst age to school as there is more unstructured play and more adult supervision. School requires much more in terms of social skills, resilience etc. Which kids,should learn but not by suddenly being dropped in it.

I'm just ranting because I'm tired and upset rather than explaining my points properly. And it's not like I can change the system. I just feel so sad that kids are missing out on being kids. It's not the worst childhood obviously but it's also not as good as it could be.

So going by all comments on here this is how school should be run.

• Starting later around age 7 (but play based care needs to be available so people can actually work)
• Only being at school from 8am to 12pm until secondary age
• Play based learning for first 2 years at least
• No exams at all
• Preparing children for the real world so learning more about mortgages and real life
• NOT just trying to turn kids into workers though
• No uniforms or clothing restrictions at all
• No homework (Except for those who’s parents ask for it)
• No punishments like detention
• Equipment available for all so no one needs to bring their own pens etc
• More general learning UNTIL age 18 for all
• More options for UNDER 18s to go down another route of learning like trades rather than school
• Less academic children to focus on important subjects only
• More increase in arts and creative stuff for EVERYONE
• NO learning about Shakespeare or poetry its pointless
• Generally less pressure for all children
• Individual one on one help for all children
• Following Finland or Germany or other countries systems. (Except the bits people don’t like)

Is that it all covered? As you can see no one will be happy with ANY system that gets used. Like you can’t have a system that means ALL children cover ALL subjects until 18 but yet some 15 year olds can move to learning a trade.
You can’t really have a system where there is zero homework EVER…. unless the parent requests it.
You can’t have school which is meant to be preparing the children for the real world but not prepare them for work as well.

Like you can’t have a system that means ALL children cover ALL subjects until 18 but yet some 15 year olds can move to learning a trade.
Well you can, they continue to cover all subjects at vocational school in Finland but just not to same depth or width as in high school, but to the level that keeps up their academic abilities and knowledge levels.

What stops kids from doing all those things you mention, OP? If this is the case with your kid, why are you stopping them from doing it?

That’s not what some people are saying here though. There are posters on here saying they want the option for children to actually LEAVE school at 15/16 and start work.
It’s not leaving school if you’re still at school and learning all the subjects even if it’s at a lower level.

Doesn't the comprehensive system fail in that a one suit fits all ideology never quite works with people? Do we accept that some are more academic than others and instead of forcing non academic children to ponder on the reasons for Bailey's procrastination or find the complex roots of quadratic equations we identify their skills and abilities at an early age and tube the education to their natural inclanations?

We have gotten rid of the grammar school concept but the comprehensive replacement is not without its faults and gearing teaching to a diverse range of abilities with well documented under resourcing is probably pushing things to the limit.

Perhaps we need to not stigmatise relative lack of educational attainment in traditional academic subjects but make school work for the children as well as children work for the school?

Yeah leaving at 15 should never be an option, it used to be allowed in Finland and those kids mostly did not do well (except for one of my collegues, he left school at 16 and became a carpenter and has done well for himself but that's the exception) which is why they made staying in education compulsory until 18 a few years ago.

Isn't this what the UTCs were aimed at? Practical learning?

The fact that our education system isn't flexible, kids are expected to do everything at certain ages, they aren't all the same. Some are emotionally & mature enough to do exams at 16, but there are others that would achieve a better outcome if they didn't do their GCSE's until 18. Why not have a system where they can stay in full time education until 20 if they need to & do the exams when they are ready?

You're downplaying the time impact here. Much of that time is still in the shadow of school: time spent preparing for school, travelling to and from school, downtime to unwind after school, homework time, and constrained plans because most of the day has been eaten up.

Time spent preparing for school - get dressed and eat breakfast - need to do that whether going to school or not.

Travelling to school - totally in your control unless live in a very rural area with no schools locally. We used to spend 40 each way travelling to school which was a waste if time, so we purposely moved to an area where school was 5 mins walk away, which is also wind down time.

4 year olds learn through play at school op, it's called 'choosing time' or something like that depending on the school. They play all the time!

And homework time can be time spent together, we use that time to discuss how their day was, anything they are struggling with etc. We try to get it all done during the week, so weekends can be family/fun time.
Travelling time is also time to chat about their day, any worries etc.
Both mine would like to spend more time at school rather than less, keep asking to attend after school club to spend more time with their friends. As many have pointed out, for lots of children school is fun and engaging, although i appreciate four some it can be very challenging due to bullying etc.

They can't be engaging in lots of unstructured play if in 3 amonths they have learnt to read fluently.

Lack of time because the school day is so long.

But the school day isn't long. Schools round here finish at 3.30 at the latest.

There’s all weekend to play. YR certainly is not just play. Have a look at the curriculum and see what dc should do. Play is part of how dc learn but it’s not the only method used. Learning to read via play doesn’t work.

The weekend isn't enough. Especially not if they also need to do homework.

Regarding reading, that's my point. I don't want them to teach reading through play. There is no need to learn how to read at 4 years old at all.

So home educate then. I'm the UK, school isn't compulsory. You can keep them home until 7, or 11 or the whole time.

@CookiePlough There might be no need for your dc to read at 4 but my dc were more then ready. They had done a load of phonics at nursery and DD1 especially loved books and language and wanted to read. No way was playing enough. She is August birthday and did not need holding back. Not all dc mature at the same speed and some advance more quickly than others. Some are much brighter than others and their needs should be met too.

In other countries parents do buy books! They really do start reading when dc are ready. I’ve met dc who were wholly taught by parents and just because the system is meant to be play there’s a whole load of dc who do more because they need it. They are frustrated and bored if they don’t.

Also what homework!? Took around 15 mins a night! Not remotely onerous in YR. We whizzed through it. If dc struggle then they are slower developers and maybe should play but that doesn’t mean my dc should be held up. My DC did dance and gym clubs after school in YR and we had time for everything. And play at home. The weekends were all play! That was just fine and sometimes other dc came home with us after school to play and stay for tea. Hours were spent playing. You need to reiorganise your day or change school.

@Brainstorm23" We've all read the stories of children starting school in nappies unable to feed or dress themselves. Those children need to start school so they are on the authorities radar and someone is looking out for them".

We shouldn't push for every child to be institutionalised because some parents are neglectful. There's harms in that too. Its taboo to ask how many of these kids lack basic life skills because they've been in nursery full-time from the moment they can hold their head up, with parents working long hours with no chance to nurture them.

Mine is also 13 and we are in a similar situation. She is at a grammar school, very bright but has severe anxiety associated with ASD. All the SEN schools round here are for children who also have learning difficulties. It is very stressful.

Just how much time do you need to spend with your DC?

Don't you work?

As has been pointed out, if you don't want to send your DC to school then the option is to -let them play at home home educate.

Then keep them at home surely? School cannot cater for every single want of every parent. Some want their kids to start school at 7. Others want their kids to start at 5 but only playing for 2 years. Others want their child to be at school for 3 hours a day only but learning in that time and then come home to play. Others are teaching their kids to read before they even start school so the kids are bored at school and would like to learn more. If someone has that strong feelings about how they want their child taught/not taught I think they need to home school.

For me, I didn’t like school until we started learning things. My mum talks about me complaining it was too long and boring for the first couple of years. Maybe for me starting school at 6 for 3 hours a day sitting at a desk learning would have been perfect for me! But I am aware that would not suit many others! Especially working parents!

I have a lot of respect for your views generally, @TizerorFizz . I have been looking, albeit briefly, into the question of learning reading via play.

Estonia with its play based approach to education until age 7 ranks 6th in the 2022 PISA. The ROI ranks 2nd. These are the only European countries in the top 10.

With apologies to those who know the Irish system better than me: In the ROI it appears that children begin school around age 5 and the first reading band is age 5-6. It seems that the preferred teaching method is a combination of phonics and whole language learning.

The ROI is committed (at least in theory) to local autonomy for schools and teachers, and to engagement with communities and families. There also seems to be an emphasis on a research-informed approach to reading. In the early years children do approach reading as play to some extent.

The fact that they learn to read in both English and Irish and (I paraphrase slightly) ‘must learn that the sounds letters make change magically at different times of the day’ is an additional challenge but also research fodder. (Estonian children also learn other languages but I don’t know much about this)

From what I can see, the ROI and Estonia have in common a respect for teachers and schools, shown by the autonomy granted them; a more play based approach to early learning; better community relations; and a greater involvement with educational research than the British.

I recall your earlier post about how the teachers of your acquaintance are a mixed lot. Isn’t that true of most professionals? Also I sometimes wonder to what extent they have been ground down. Of course this becomes a problem of the chicken and the egg.

As for teacher unions, I am aware of a number of cases of successful older teachers with no history of problems being chucked out on flimsy pretexts. It is a money saving device, as they are on relatively high salaries. Unions are their best protection.

The average age on the admin side is plummeting, as people with the knowledge to do the job right don’t find it worth the stress. The necessary wisdom isn’t always there from what I hear.

I see merit to the idea that a good MBA or similar degree could be useful in a Head. But not at the expense of substantial classroom experience - they need the full package. And they mustn’t become glib. There is far too much of that in HE already and it is killing the sector.

@poetryandwine If you look deeper into Estonian kindergartens, they take dc from 18 months until 7 and staff all have degrees. It’s not child care. Plus the dc have literacy classes and can read before entering the next phase. There are some interesting comparisons with Finland about early acquisition of reading skills in Estonia. The difference in Estonia is high use of technology and a kindergarten national curriculum. Teachers get flexibility but they find the brightest dc at the best phase have acquired good literacy skills. So no one is there is waiting until 7 to start. In fact there’s quite a lot of reference to inside teaching and outside play.

Therefore it’s possible home life, qualification of teachers and expectations all play a part. The curriculum is very technology based but dc need literacy skills to access it.

Every single school I have ever been involved with valued good teachers. All good teachers stay in post if they wish to. Everyone knows recruitment new ones is difficult so there’s no trend to get rid of good teachers. If teachers are ill a lot or have significant issues, the schools negotiate release. What I don’t think many young people like is joining a workforce that’s heavily unionized, has poor management at times and has difficult parents and poorly behaving dc. There are easier jobs. I also think there’s a correlation between a unionized workforce and loss of status in this country. Estonian teachers don’t think they are well paid apparently but do they strike?