Cleaner charging up to £45 an hour!

[Aanothernamechanger]

Regular MNuser but NC for this...

Need perspective, and also interested from anyone else who lives in a flat. I bought my flat in 2021. The building is a coming up to 18 years old. There are 5 floors and 20 flats in total.

Overall, the building is in very good condition, as it's generally treated well by people who live / visit here, and is well maintained, although this comes at a cost, hence my AIBU?

Our service charges are approx £2000 per flat per year, and I've recently (November) had the latest annual statement sent to me. On the breakdown of costs, the cleaning for the interior of the building comes in at £2340, which I work out to be £45 per flat per week. I hadn't given this any thought on previous years, probably because it seemed OK when compared to all the other expenses we have, and probably because the building never looks dirty, so I figured someone must be doing something - and I word that very carefully, in as much as I am not saying "you can tell when the cleaner has been", I am saying "it always looks clean, from one day to the next".

Anyway, it never occurred to me that the cleaner we have works for himself. I just assumed he probably worked for a company or an agency or whatever. But I was chatting to him in passing recently, and it cropped up in conversation that he is not an employee of anyone.

So here's my AIBU - I think what we pay for the cleaning would be fair if it was a company who sent staff, but I think it's a lot for someone who works for themselves. Added to which, I can see from my window (I WFH most days) when he arrives and leaves, and sometimes it's only an hour or just over! I queried this with the management company, and they said he (the cleaner) does not charge an hourly rate, he charges a fixed price per calendar month to turn up once a week to "maintain" (their words) the building. They say that the amount of time he takes to clean is at his discretion as he is trusted to keep on top of the cleaning schedule, and that some times he might be on site for several hours (I have never seen this, although with there being five floors there is no knowing where he is when he's here!).

I asked them what they do to make sure we are paying a fair price, and they admitted that it's been a long time since anyone else quoted for the cleaning, but said to me they hire loads of other cleaning companies for other buildings they manage, and "consider" (again their words) that the price would likely go up if anyone else was to take it over. Added to this, they said the cleaner tests the fire alarm and emergency lights which is something they say they could not trust most of their sub-contractors to do, as they don't always send the same people to clean and can't rely on them to do it properly. They said if they swapped cleaners then we'd have to pay separately for a member of the management company to come out each week to do the tests. I am not sure I believe any of that, but hey. They also said our cleaner is exceptionally reliable and very well liked by them and residents in my building and other buildings he cleans for them.

I have spoken to some of the neighbours about it to gauge opinion, which isn't easy as about half of the flats are rented, so the tenants don't care as they don't have to pay the service charges, their landlords do. However, there is one lady who has lived here since the flats were built, and until now she was always quite friendly with me, but when I mentioned this situation she became incredibly defensive (I didn't know until she told me, but she also pays the cleaner to do work in her flat from time to time and clearly thinks the sun shines out of his bum-hole), saying that he'd been cleaning the building for at least 12 years to the best of her memory, and that before then they'd had all sorts of problems with the building not being cleaned properly or regularly, and said there's no way she wants to go through all that again. She practically closed her front door in my face after this!

But I still can't get over how much our cleaner gets paid every week and I think the management company isn't doing enough to ensure we pay as little as possible. AIBU?

I think you are being unreasonable because you would be happy if it was an agency that sent someone else! It sounds like he does a good job. He will still have business overheads to cover if he is self employed. He's reliable and there is no issue with his work. Don't rock that boat!

I live in mansion flat - 4 in a very large house with shared stairs/lift/hallway. We paid £150 per month for a cleaner for about 1.5 hours per week for the communal area. He was useless and did buggar all (that was if he even did turn up) so we got rid and now just clean our own area and it works.
We have a cleaner for our flat who comes once a fortnight for 3 hours charges £20 p/h and she is very good. £45 p/h seems a lot.

£2340 divided by 20 flats, divided by 12 months, works out to £9.75 a month per flat.

Or are you saying each of the 20 flats pays £2340 a year for cleaning, which is more than the £2000 a year service charge?

Why would it be OK to pay the same amount of money to an agency.

You're bothered because you think someone who is "just" a cleaner shouldn't earn a decent wage.

The communal areas are kept clean, you should be happy that it's being maintained to a good standard.

It is £2340 per year, divided by 20 flats, not £2340 x 20 flats.

So how can it be £45 per flat per week then?

So you'd be happy for the money to be absorbed by an agency and don't like a self employed hard worker earning for themselves? YABVU

I also can’t see how you work out the £45 per hour . If 2340 is the total charge for the building for the year that is 2340/20 which is £117 per flat per year and that split over 12 months is £9.75 per flat per month . How are you doing the working out ?

That is my mistake, sorry, I meant to type "£45 per VISIT per week" and I put "per flat". Thank you for this as I didn't spot my error.

So 2340 divided by 52 , well that’s not the same as £45 per hour then .

Please see my previous message where I said I made an error. What I mean is that every week we (all 20 of us) are charged £45 collectively, that is to say £2340 divided by 52 is £45, and sometimes he's only here for an hour.

I think £45 per week is reasonable given you have no complaints about the work. The person is self-employed and has to travel between their work so this takes time and money that is unpaid.

If you can find someone who is just as good and charges £25 per hour for one visit a week to do hard physical work across an entire building of 20 flats suggest them then.

Ok. £45 per visit to look after the communal areas for 20 flats seems dirt cheap to me. You r said the place is always clean, and continues to look clean, so I think you’re undervaluing the work of the cleaner and just not understanding what it takes to keep it that way.

I get it , we x posted . That said if the building is quite large , which it is , and it always seems well maintained I think £45 per week ( or £9.75 per flat) is very reasonable .

But how can an hour be enough???

So it's costing each flat less than £2.50 per week for the communal areas to be cleaned and you're complaining. It represents a fraction over 5% of your service charge. I think you are looking in the wrong place for savings.

Why would you rock the boat if the current cleaner is reliable.

I would think that cleaning a block of flats takes more than an hour a week. 5 floors, entrance lobby and stairs would likely be 3 hrs Which works out at £15 an hour. I presume the cleaner uses their own equipment and cleaning products since they are not itemised. So I think the cost is reasonable.

YABU to think that's a lot of money; the cleaner has to travel to and from the job with his own transport and equipment, do the job, and earn enough to pay for the hour plus his pension and sick pay.
If you think an hour isn't enough, what jobs aren't being done?

But sometimes he's there more than an hour? So it's not £45 an hour!

It'll also likely cover call out fees for any issues. I used to pay £600 (airtight 5 year contract dumped on me!) a visit through an agency, per visit for emergency lighting checks for an office, twice a year. That would be half your price in one go.

I'm reasonably experienced with this stuff, and you can pursue it but I highly doubt they'll find cheaper than that.

But it's not £45 an hour. He has to get in between various jobs, pay insurance, pay for a vehicle, cleaning materials, his pension, national Insurnace, an allowance for 26 days holiday pay - and if he worked at the flats 40 hours a week, yep - you'd have a point .. but totally reasonable for a "visit" to be £45.
You are being VVVVv unreasonable.

Ask for the thread to be pulled OP! You've totally embarrassed yourself with your maths and you'll only get hundreds of replies telling you the same thing.

Sounds like the OP thinks cleaners would be overpaid on minimum wage.

You've decided he's only there for an hour based on your observation but if you are working from home and are glued to your window watching the coming and going of the cleaner then your own employer probably has reasonable grounds for complaint.

Do you do something terribly important but don't get paid £45 an hour?

YABU. His overheads are higher if he's self employed. He doesn't get sick pay, employer pension contributions, etc. He has to pay his own NIC. He doesn't get holiday pay. He will have to provide his own materials, equipment and supplies, including a vehicle. Not sure why you were thinking he'd be cheaper than an employee!!!