Page 8 | To feel that many men are totally unprepared and unsuited to domesticity?

JFDIYOLO · 2024-12-30T02:02:50+00:00

So many instances shared on Mumsnet of grown men behaving like adolescents. Spending hours gaming, incapable of regulating their emotions, violent outbursts, dick-led decisions, expecting Mummy 2.0 from their wives, utterly lacking in empathy and care during pregnancy, labour, newborn baby & toddler years, father fails ... But why is this? Was it always so, or do we just hear way more now from women who are no longer prepared to put up with it and ready to discuss and share advice? Should there be some kind of exam, a screening process before they can proceed to the next level of In A Relationship?

bifurCAT · 30/12/2024 15:47

Couldn't men make the counter-argument about women? Just switching around OP's original words:

Spending hours scrolling/shopping, incapable of regulating their emotions (I think men would say women are worse at this!), emotional outbursts, emotion-led decisions, expecting Daddy 2.0 from their husbands (being spoiled, showered with presents, dinners, cosmetics, etc), utterly lacking in empathy and care after a hard manual labour day's work, expecting full participation/parenting after a 12-hour day...

Obviously all of the above is a stereotype (as was OP's post), and not really based on my own experience.

JHound · 30/12/2024 15:48

RockPaperS · 30/12/2024 12:28

As a society, how do we empower women to not accept the default role of domestic slave?

I have asked in the past why women accept lazy men as partners (lazy as in not doing any housework, child related duties etc) and the answers were basically that they want children/a partner so better a lazy one than nothing. Or that they are reproducing what they have witnessed from their parents.

Personally this is hard to understand as - being naturally lazy myself - when I met my now-DH at 25 it never occurred to me that I was supposed to do everything. Instead I would ask if he preferred to cook or do the laundry, or ask at what time he wanted us to clean the flat.
I just don’t get why women shoot themselves in the foot like to begin with.

The biological clock gives men a lot of power in this regard.

Most women want to experience motherhood. Waiting for a decent partner / equal partner would mean most women’s clock running out while searching.

Also misogynist conditioning reinforces to women that is just “how men are” so they accept it till it becomes too much to bear.

Itsmitneymitch · 30/12/2024 15:52

JHound · 30/12/2024 15:48

The biological clock gives men a lot of power in this regard.

Most women want to experience motherhood. Waiting for a decent partner / equal partner would mean most women’s clock running out while searching.

Also misogynist conditioning reinforces to women that is just “how men are” so they accept it till it becomes too much to bear.

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How do we know that the biological clock was ever true?

I think that the biological clock is a lie that was invented by men, to make women think that they have very little time and that women have to rush into marriage and kids.

When I was young I was definitely told that women qere only fertile until around 36. And that every pregnancy after that is extremely rare.

The older I get, I realise that is simply not true.

I know of lots of women who have had babies in their forties. My cousin is pregnant now at age 46.

I think that men just lied to us and led us to believe that we would become infertile at age 40. When it is not true!

Women can have babies well into their forties. And maybe some in their fifties.

TheWorminLabyrinth · 30/12/2024 15:53

Itsmitneymitch · 30/12/2024 15:09

I'm fairly sure that men invented "marriage" to get a woman servant for life.

It's not natural. To sign a contract to agree to be in a relationship forever

I do agree with this. I have been called nihilistic on here before for my views though!

I really feel like women have been sold a big whopping fat lie for years. That you cannot be happy unless you are saddled with a man and kids. If this is what you are taught from a young age, and bombarded with all the time, then of course you will settle for any old scruff and have a load of kids. By the time you wake up at 45 and think where the fuck is MY life, it's too late.

JHound · 30/12/2024 15:55

bifurCAT · 30/12/2024 15:47

Couldn't men make the counter-argument about women? Just switching around OP's original words:

Spending hours scrolling/shopping, incapable of regulating their emotions (I think men would say women are worse at this!), emotional outbursts, emotion-led decisions, expecting Daddy 2.0 from their husbands (being spoiled, showered with presents, dinners, cosmetics, etc), utterly lacking in empathy and care after a hard manual labour day's work, expecting full participation/parenting after a 12-hour day...

Obviously all of the above is a stereotype (as was OP's post), and not really based on my own experience.

If it was true that women were more “incapable of controlling their emotions” then the violent crime statistics and prison population numbers would look very different.

The data on domestic labour shows clearly that women do more of it.

It’s not a stereotype.

Luminousalumnus · 30/12/2024 15:56

JHound · 30/12/2024 15:05

^^ See

”Men are biologically programmed to be useless partners!”

😂

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Men are not biologically programmed to be partners at all. Left to their own devices, most would have sex with as many women as possible and not be around to even meet the children. They prefer sex to children. We are animals. Our nearest animal relatives are not monogamous. Why would we be any different? Bonobo fathers do absolutely bugger all.

JHound · 30/12/2024 15:57

Itsmitneymitch · 30/12/2024 15:52

How do we know that the biological clock was ever true?

I think that the biological clock is a lie that was invented by men, to make women think that they have very little time and that women have to rush into marriage and kids.

When I was young I was definitely told that women qere only fertile until around 36. And that every pregnancy after that is extremely rare.

The older I get, I realise that is simply not true.

I know of lots of women who have had babies in their forties. My cousin is pregnant now at age 46.

I think that men just lied to us and led us to believe that we would become infertile at age 40. When it is not true!

Women can have babies well into their forties. And maybe some in their fifties.

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I mean we know for a fact that women are not fertile their entire lives.

We know for a fact that for a woman, conceiving and carrying a baby to term becomes much harder as we age.

So we know for a fact the biological clock is true. No point engaging in You Tube esque myth making.

JHound · 30/12/2024 15:59

Luminousalumnus · 30/12/2024 15:56

Men are not biologically programmed to be partners at all. Left to their own devices, most would have sex with as many women as possible and not be around to even meet the children. They prefer sex to children. We are animals. Our nearest animal relatives are not monogamous. Why would we be any different? Bonobo fathers do absolutely bugger all.

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Humans have evolved significantly beyond all other animals.

It’s laughable nonsense to claim men’s genetics prevent them being able to use a mop and bucket.

TheWorminLabyrinth · 30/12/2024 15:59

Men are not biologically programmed to be partners at all. Left to their own devices, most would have sex with as many women as possible and not be around to even meet the children. They prefer sex to children. We are animals. Our nearest animal relatives are not monogamous. Why would we be any different? Bonobo fathers do absolutely bugger all

Does this mean then that women who are not interested in children or monogamy or baking or mopping are somehow 'programmed' wrong?

Itsmitneymitch · 30/12/2024 16:02

JHound · 30/12/2024 15:57

I mean we know for a fact that women are not fertile their entire lives.

We know for a fact that for a woman, conceiving and carrying a baby to term becomes much harder as we age.

So we know for a fact the biological clock is true. No point engaging in You Tube esque myth making.

Edited

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that's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying that women are fertile for their whole lives.

Im saying that males used to tell women that women weren't fertile beyond age 35/36. They told women that pregnancies after thar age were "geriatric".

When that is not true.

Many Women are fertile and are able to get pregnant well into their late forties

So we have much more time on the biological clock, then we were told that we had

Goldenbear · 30/12/2024 16:03

devilspawn · 30/12/2024 14:28

Most men don't actually want to be dads. They agree to it because they like sex and they want to shut their partner/mother up and they don't realise what they're getting themselves into. There are some men who genuinely want to be dads, but not that many, and usually there are big chunks of fatherhood they dislike, like the baby stage. Even men who want to have kids and have had a happy family for years describe having kids as "getting it out of the way" and putting their foot down about too much grandchild interaction.

My partner and I don't want kids. He'd be a good dad, but he doesn't want to be a dad. As such he's great domestically because he has the time and energy to put into things he enjoys about it, like cooking, and has the patience to split the things with me that neither of us particularly loves, like putting the bin out. Plus, we only have to do a minimal amount of things and at most once a day or once a week because it's much easier not having kids doing things like throwing toys or cereal around on repeat. And he also has time for the hobbies and things he loves, so it's very balanced. As I do the same we're both equal and neither is resentful.

Edited

I don't think wanting to be a Dad or a Mum has anything to do with domestic tasks. First and foremost we both wanted a child, the domestic set up was an organic process and it wasn't always ideal.

I don't think we either one of us is a natural at domesticity as there is a danger of being bored to death by it. However, we have a tidy, clean house as the alternative it not for us.

Elsvieta · 30/12/2024 16:05

They may well be unprepared but they are not innately unsuited. Butlers were always men - a high-status and well-paid job, paid more than any of the female servants, on top of all the details of catering and housekeeping and all that for a big team. When doing "menial" and "domestic" tasks gets them status and money, men can do it. (See also: chefs, hotel managers etc). If childcare / elderly care started coming with £100k a year and a title people respect, men would start doing it, and mostly doing it bloody well, probably.

CeaselesslyIntoThePast · 30/12/2024 16:05

Sosayallofus · 30/12/2024 04:48

No, men can easily learn domestic chores, they just don't fancy it. Women have always worked for pay, often shitty pay so if their husbands spent all the family money whoring or on drugs or drink etc they could feed their kids, so it has nothing at all to do with a change in roles.

The bottom line is the internet. It's fucked up generations of men. Men were always much more violent and unpredictable than women, and because they got away with behaving badly many did. The decent men have to become more aggressive just to survive in the toxic world the angry men create. And it's gotten far, far worse with their constant 24 hour exposure to women being anally raped, beaten strangled, under the pretence of sex and the other things that are freely and easily available on the terrifying shit show of the internet.

There's a ton of information out there about how bad the internet is for kids, teenagers, adults, how horribly bad what passes for porn nowadays is. It's not a debate anymore, it's all easily proven - but nobody seems to care.

I was born and nearly 30 before the internet took over. The world, from porn to entertainment is far different, and far worse, especially in the last ten to fftteen years.

Men, as a sex, are dangerous, lazy and selfish and women, as a sex, keep trying to make progress and keep being beaten and raped and tortured back into the cages men make for us.

And literally everyone has a Not my Nigel exception, including me. several in fact. Doesn't matter, the points stand.

There's no answer, or way to fix it. We're a failed species.

Edited

You seem a bit hung up on porn. Society is far more complex than freely available porn, of which I might add over half of women regularly access and enjoy.

Itsmitneymitch · 30/12/2024 16:06

CeaselesslyIntoThePast · 30/12/2024 16:05

You seem a bit hung up on porn. Society is far more complex than freely available porn, of which I might add over half of women regularly access and enjoy.

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It not porn though.

It's torture porn.

Torture porn is available. I do think it's a problem aswell in society.

RealGreyOrca · 30/12/2024 16:07

Some women are too though to be fair. I think if we’re talking those men who don’t do any housework at all, and expect their female partner to do it all instead then I do think it’s sometimes it’s that they’ve managed to find pushover, especially if both work full time. At worst it’s just misogyny, maybe they grew up in a household where the women did all of the domestic stuff and expect that of a partner. It’s also laziness and societal norms unfortunately that create this imbalance. Women are less likely to want to put up with an unclean, untidy house than men are it would appear.

Original poster

JFDIYOLO · 30/12/2024 16:09

No, I don't think we can simply switch round the original post as a reverse.

Otherwise the papers would be full of women committing sexual offences, football violence, Pelicot-level atrocities etc.

And Dadsnet would be a very different forum. The first thing that pops up (🤨) over there is a piece about erectile dysfunction ...

OP posts:

Itsmitneymitch · 30/12/2024 16:09

Another thing aswell, is that it's fun for men to have power and be selfish, so why would men give it up?

I was talking to a male colleague once about how hard it was for women.

He said to me

'yeah it's great for men. Why would we give up the power. It's fun to keep people down and have more things for yourself. Men enjoy it. It means that there is more for me. '

Then he said to me "would you give up that bit of power if it was the other way around. Of course you wouldn't. You would enjoy women having the power and men being second class citizens. Why would you be motivated to change that'

That said a lot to me.

timetodecide2345 · 30/12/2024 16:11

My husband is 55. He's just been steam cleaning the carpets. I have to say when I first met him at 30 he couldn't work a washing machine. Are boys being taught these things. Probably not.

MangoRose · 30/12/2024 16:12

My DH used to be better at domestic stuff but he is crap now. He's never really done cleaning, I was on maternity then we had a cleaner, now it's all left to me. I can dish out jobs and he'll do them but he won't think to himself.

He actually asked me earlier if part baked bread can go in the airfryer and how long for when he had the packet in hand he could have looked at. It pisses me off TBH.

I am becoming less tolerant as I get older, perhaps because the kids are older now so it's not all hands on deck in that way. I also work full time (more than full time hrs) so it definitely should be more equal.

Goldenbear · 30/12/2024 16:15

Itsmitneymitch · 30/12/2024 16:09

Another thing aswell, is that it's fun for men to have power and be selfish, so why would men give it up?

I was talking to a male colleague once about how hard it was for women.

He said to me

'yeah it's great for men. Why would we give up the power. It's fun to keep people down and have more things for yourself. Men enjoy it. It means that there is more for me. '

Then he said to me "would you give up that bit of power if it was the other way around. Of course you wouldn't. You would enjoy women having the power and men being second class citizens. Why would you be motivated to change that'

That said a lot to me.

Edited

What a Charmer, is he single!

SerenityNowSerenityNow · 30/12/2024 16:18

Are boys being taught these things. Probably not.

My boy is......

And my friends are teaching their boys too.

YouMeandBrie · 30/12/2024 16:22

Lourdes12 · 30/12/2024 08:50

It’s nature, the way they are wired by nature. Men are wired to provide and women are wired to nurture

Edited

But now women also have to provide by necessity so men are also expected fo step up and nurture and those who can’t or won’t will find themselves left behind.

Original poster

JFDIYOLO · 30/12/2024 16:25

Shall we make a pact?

Everyone who has babies / kids / teens, starts TOMORROW. A good hard look at what they're telling, teaching and expecting of their boys and girls.

And kids or not, another GHL at how things have become at home with our partners.

New year, new ways.

OP posts:

ObelixtheGaul · 30/12/2024 16:26

CharSiu · 30/12/2024 13:25

Parents both men and women need to teach all of their children how to run a house. My parents did. My brothers can cook and clean. I taught my DS how to cook from 12 and not baking which seems to be what my English friends seemed to focus on, actual cooking meals. I’m English but of Chinese descent.

My DS was paid for chores, no chores no pocket money. He can do everything, cook, clean, iron, he can actually clean better than me.

DH did have some housework expectations when we first lived together, they were not met as I refused. His Mother had a housekeeper so he grew up doing nothing. That changed. It’s why it’s good to live together before marrying.

All that mental load stuff? I have never bought a birthday card or gift for any of his family, that’s his job.

Same here on the mental load front. The whole 'buying gifts for his family' bit...why? Why do women even start that? I've been married 27 years and never wrote cards or remembered his family's birthdays. I have a job remembering my own family's dates, never mind having to remember the people he grew up with. He's never expected that from me.

DarkForces · 30/12/2024 16:30

ObelixtheGaul · 30/12/2024 16:26

Same here on the mental load front. The whole 'buying gifts for his family' bit...why? Why do women even start that? I've been married 27 years and never wrote cards or remembered his family's birthdays. I have a job remembering my own family's dates, never mind having to remember the people he grew up with. He's never expected that from me.

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When we first got together I used to enjoy choosing gifts together for his family. It was the first thing I dropped. Dh now outsources it to one of his sisters. Although I try to team up with my sister and do the same for my parents! Given up now and get them theatre tickets and a box of chocolates every year.