AIBU to think that Bridget Phillipson is exaggerating the level of middle-class support for VAT on school fees?

[TepidWatersOfManagedDecline]

Bridget Phillipson has been quoted as saying that the policy is supported by "middle-class parents in good professional jobs with housing costs who just can't afford that level of fee" and want "brilliant state schools". www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c86wd1y7v2xo

Is this true, in your experience? Most middle-class parents with professional jobs who I’ve discussed this with think that it’s a spiteful policy (including those who don’t use the independent sector).

AIBU to think that Bridget Phillipson is exaggerating the level of support for the policy?

The point about extra time is this:

If you have two students of matched ability, and matched needs, they should either both get extra time or both not get extra time. It should not depend on school sector or parental income.

Around 42% of pupils in private schools get 25% extra time vs around 26% in state non-selective schools and 15% in state selective schools. What the ‘true’ figure would be for each group of schools if ‘matching pupils always received the same’ is unclear, but at first glance this disparity- as has been widely noted - merits further investigation.

If you have two students of matched ability, and matched needs, they should either both get extra time or both not get extra time. It should not depend on school sector or parental income.

Oh, I agree, but I don’t think the answer is no extra for either.

Why does disappear when you edit a post even if you haven’t edited it out?

Yeah rare as opposed to uncommon is a myth and a lie. 🤔

@Sherrystrull

"I don't think this policy will help state education, I'd be amazed to find anyone who thinks it will"

So I hear 'it won't raise any money' to 'it'll financially devastate the private sector'.

How will it devastate the private sector if it won't raise any money?

And how was it possible for private schools to thrive 20 years ago when fees were only marginally more than the money allocated per state school pupil by the government, but apparently now private schools need to charge twice as much to function in any capacity, and are completely unable to cut costs in order to reduce fees to help the small numbers of parents who will struggle with VAT imposition?

That is what I meant. However you seem to have misinterpreted that to mean extra time is of no benefit. Feel free to post data evidencing a direct link between extra time and increased grades.

I agree with you. The funding of state schools is horrific and we deal with it and have to cut our cloth accordingly.

Well, saying it is rare for an EHCP to name an independent school is a myth (or a lie, but only you know whether you lied). Saying DC in independent MS won’t get an EHCP is also a myth (or a lie). Saying it isn’t possible for DC who need a 1:1 in state MS to not need 1:1 in independent MS is a myth or a lie…

Agreed.

We’re only discussing the use of the word rare as opposed to uncommon. Rare is a myth apparantly when uncommon isn’t. 🤔The rest you’re debating with yourself.

@Juliagreeneyes

"Sigh - so you think that actually entrenching the privilege of the really wealthy independent schools, whilst forcing the less wealthy ones to close and less wealthy kids back into a state sector with limited resources, whilst not really raising much money overall, is a good way to reduce social inequality? "

It's a very small step towards that. And as the saying goes - every little helps.

Re: 'with limited resources' - as the funding follows the child, state schools who take additional pupils will be funded for that child's place. This may be particularly helpful for schools in areas with falling rolls, which coincidentally happen to also be the places with the biggest concentration of children in private education.

In addition to this, increasing the percentage of able/well supported, aspirational children in a school is generally advantageous to the school community as a whole.

Equally, saying that private schools are the - or even a good - solution for the whole range of children with SEN is untrue, as would saying that all private schools welcome SEN pupils.

’Managing out’ pupils whose SEN becomes clearer or manifests in more difficult ways as they progress through eg private primary / prep schools is ime (as the receiving state school teacher of a number of such pupils) relatively common, especially if SEN affects behaviour in a way that parents of other children find less desirable. (It would be interesting to compare numbers, tbh, of SEN children leaving private schools thus year due to VAT compared with the usual movement of those encouraged to ‘find a school that better meets their needs’)

No, we aren’t only discussing rare vs uncommon. Your posts go further than that.

“Equally, saying that private schools are the - or even a good - solution for the whole range of children with SEN is untrue, as would saying that all private schools welcome SEN pupils.”

Good job I haven’t said that then, isn’t it?

"The funding of state schools is horrific and we deal with it and have to cut our cloth accordingly."

'Horrific'? 🙄

What's your comparator? Lavishly resourced private schools?

The UK spends more than the majority of European countries like Germany, France, Italy etc.

No, sorry, I was musing on the wider themes of the thread, not a specific post.

As I said earlier, I would have only support for private schools, seen as necessary for the education of SEN pupils but at risk of closure, re-inventing themselves as state-funding special schools, taking all those who meet a certain level of need with regard only to their consistently-assessed need and not parental income.

I think that you have some good points here but are wrong about some of the specifics.

As others have already said you wouldn't get to use up teacher resource by pushing as a parent in the way you describe. Honestly my son's state comp just completely ignore parents. They wouldn't even reply to your emails let along agree to meet you. You would only meet them if your child had been badly behaved and they wanted to see you.

However if your child is fairly conformist, doesn't have SEND, is of average or above ability and you pay for extra tuition in any subjects they find hard and for music lessons and extra curriculars outside of school then I think things will nonetheless pretty much pan out as you suggest.

If the school has only two cricket teams per year and doesn't have the space or resources to teach it properly who is going to be on those teams? The kids whose parents have enrolled them into a cricket club and paid for coaching, that's who.

At my son's comp, the top sets, the orchestra, the sports teams and the school shows are all comprised of the same group of affluent children. The school has over a thousand students and yet you see the same few faces over and over again popping up with their achievements in the newsletters.

Results definitely go up when more middle class kids come to a school but that has a lot more to do with the parents paying for extra help for their own children then the parents being able to improve the school.

Don't think anybody has said that, actually! 🤷‍♀️

Thats as maybe but they’re certainly not saying what you are debating.

Did not say DC in independent MS won’t get an EHCP.

Also did not say it isn’t possible for DC who need a 1:1 in state MS to not need 1:1 in independent MS.

No you don't get to tell them. But undoubtedly the child of more proactive supportive (but polite) will get more than the child of the parent who doesn't actively engage with the school.
My oldest - bright but missed a chunk of school due to surgery - she wasn't deemed in need of maths booster sessions offered by school due to still achieving at expected age. But previously she was exceeding expectations, so she wasn't at her full potential. So yes, I asked for her to attend the boosters to get her back to her previous achievement level.

Can’t wait til this is bedded in and we don’t have to listen to the bleating about paying tax anymore!

Apologies again. One of the arguments being used here to justify continued VAT-free private education is because charging VAT will disadvantage SEN pupils currently attending private schools.

I had extrapolated without explanation- that would only justify the VAT-free status of some private schools (because not all admit / welcome SEN pupils) and also potentially be unfair both because state schools would potentially be left catering for the most challenging SEN pupils and because some parents would find (as they do now) that these private schools, lauded by MN as being of value because of their care for SEN pupils, would not admit their particular child.

@SeNonOraQuando

As a parent who hasn't sent her kids to fee paying schools, what could you say to me to persuade me that I should support tax policy that props up your child's privileged education, and gives her an unfair and unearned advantage over my own children when it comes to competing for jobs and university places?

I totally support it. Private schools are absolutely not charities- and just by inviting the local ‘poor but gifted’ children for a Saturday class for a few weeks as they do in my area, does not make them one. It is wrong. Of course this would not solve the problem of a failing state schools but it is a step in the right direction

You certainly are saying that.

At 6.39am you posted:
“Children that can manage in a mainstream private school will not get an EHCP.”

At 14.19 you posted:
”Not sure how needing a 121 on an EHCP can be smoothed away by mainstream private with no 121. You either need a 121 or you don’t, being in classes of 15 is not likely to make a difference with 121 need.”

Neither of which are true. Some children who can manage in an independent MS can and do get EHCPs. Some DC with a 1:1 in state MS don’t need one in an independent MS.