AIBU to think that Bridget Phillipson is exaggerating the level of middle-class support for VAT on school fees?

[TepidWatersOfManagedDecline]

Bridget Phillipson has been quoted as saying that the policy is supported by "middle-class parents in good professional jobs with housing costs who just can't afford that level of fee" and want "brilliant state schools". www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c86wd1y7v2xo

Is this true, in your experience? Most middle-class parents with professional jobs who I’ve discussed this with think that it’s a spiteful policy (including those who don’t use the independent sector).

AIBU to think that Bridget Phillipson is exaggerating the level of support for the policy?

You can’t possibly have experienced it if you describe it in such fundamentally untrue terms. 🤷‍♀️

And let me ask you directly, @TheDeftHare : will you still be all for this VAT policy if it turns out that it raises no money, or even ends up costing the taxpayer more in the end? If it ends up with no effect or even putting state schools under more pressure, would you still support it?

I'm not sure how to be any clearer.

Oxbridge treats the tutorial system as a sacred cow vital to students' success. It isn't, it's one (expensive) way of doing things that is not necessary for good outcomes given the cohort.

Private schools treat high teacher levels as a sacred cow vital to children's success. They aren't, it's one (expensive) way of doing things that is not necessary for good outcomes given the cohort.

In both scenarios, the institution believes that an expensive age-old tradition (tutorials, lots of staff) is what secures them good outcomes; in fact, it's just good cohorts plus good basics.

Exactly my fear…. Bunch of bother for nothing! In my area there are no grammar schools and lots of private schools and the media is already reporting that the county is out of places for certain secondary years. If the money is just going to be spent on private taxis for children to go out of area than what is the point?

I currently can see no link between the vat and how it will directly impact schools? Just saying that it will… but how?

Private schools treat high teacher levels as a sacred cow vital to children's success. They aren't, it's one (expensive) way of doing things that is not necessary for good outcomes given the cohort

I think it makes a huge difference actually. Obviously you only realise the benefits if you have dedicated teaching staff. However it's probably easier to recruit them.

• More time to mark work or tests
• More time to plan
• More time to get to know students
• More scope to adapt teaching to the needs of individual students
• More time to give student's individual help inside or outside lessons.
• More time to communicate with parents about progress or issues
• More time to run catch up sessions and extra curricular activities
• More time to assist students with SEND
• Calmer atmosphere. Easier to manage classes without authoritarian behaviour policies
• Less chance of staff burn out
• Easier to attract and retain staff

Occasionally I do wonder if some money could be saved on support staff. But the high teacher to pupil ratio has massive benefits.

This was in the context of SEN not physical disabilities. And I’m on the side of extra time for those who need it.

You’re seriously making the argument that bigger class sizes don’t have any relation to teaching or achievement outcomes, despite everyone else on the thread acknowledging that they do (particularly the parents of kids with SEN)? Being a kid in a class of 35 is just as good as a class of 16?

You think writing one or two essays a term with only a few feedback comments and going to seminars of 30 people is just as good a way of teaching as writing eight or ten essays a term and going to tutorials with 1-3 people with detailed written and verbal feedback?

Where is the evidence for this; and what kind of teaching for 1.5 hours in a group of 30 is as good as 1 hour in a group of 2? What does the teacher DO in practice in that 1.5 hrs that’s just as good? Give a 90 minute lecture? Give each student 3 individual minutes of feedback that’s just as good as 30 minutes of feedback? Do tell me; I’d love to know, as would lecturers all around the country!

<waits with bated breath for the arrival of this new revolution in pedagogy to be unveiled>

EHCP does not mean 121. Few children have them or need them. There are many excellent ways to provide Sen provision that happens day in and day out within the state sector without a 121.

Not sure how needing a 121 on an EHCP can be smoothed away by mainstream private with no 121. You either need a 121 or you don’t, being in classes of 15 is not likely to make a difference with 121 need.The children we have with a 121 would need it in the private sector which would struggle to meet their needs. There is so much more to Sen than small classes and 121s.

@@TheDeftHare and what do you even mean by the cohort? There are many different private schools with many different intakes. Where you have academically gifted students it's still hard work planning interesting work for them that extends beyond the curriculum. I guess there are some students who are so clever and self motivated they would get good exam results even if they didn't go to school at all and taught themselves using internet resources. But the idea is that they will get an education and develop their minds and intellects and characters not just that they will obtain certain bits of paper.

It’s handy that you were beyond caring before you answered the question.

For those talking about people missing out on places etc, you do need to bear in mind the number of 11yos and 4yos isn't static, and in fact has been very much decreasing year on year for a while now nationally. I know this isn't necessarily the same in every part of England, but that is the national picture. A lot of small primary schools around here are having to close classes etc- they'd really welcome additional students, and for some small village schools even 2/3 additional students can actually make a difference!

From about 2012 onwards, the UK birthrate has been falling year on year, so this is starting to impact secondary schools too. Yes, obviously you still get over subscribed schools, but many schools are starting to have less applicants for Y7, which does have a knock on impact higher up the school (until you lose enough students to drop a whole class). So again, these schools may, very well be keen to get additional students and welcome them- the school not having a falling roll is good for everyone!

The only general entry point where this isn't having an impact yet is post-16, but there's always lots of movement post 16, and it is very common for students to move from private to state at this stage anyway and there's usually a bit more flexibility around class sizes at this age anyway, and bigger classes at this level are better for school budgets.

I genuinely don't think schools in my area are worried about accommodating additional students- if anything, they are probably working desperately to recruit them.

It depends how you measure effectiveness. Presumably you can appreciate the difference between educational experience & results. Oxbridge will get good results however they frame their tutorials due to their intake, however the experience of small tutorials is fundamentally different to large ones.

How does this help children in y8 and above. Crucial learning and exams years. Doesn't their education matter?

Sorry - my comment was in response to pp saying rolls are falling due to falls in the birthrate.

I think it would only be a solution that would work for some children. You are probably right that most students that would benefit from an independent wouldn't be entitled to a 1 to 1 in the state sector in any case.

Nope. Not true in DS' case.

The 1-2-1 TA is there to a) assist him if he starts to be unable to cope in the large classes to either help him stay there or get him out to somewhere he can calm down; and b) assist him in moving around a school with 1000 pupils in it, as he can't cope with the noise or moving through vast numbers of people on his own. Neither of those apply in a much smaller school where he isn't under sensory onslaught.

It's better if you don't think you know about every child's specific needs!

SEN can include some DC with physical disabilities and/or VI.

Not sure how needing a 121 on an EHCP can be smoothed away by mainstream private with no 121. You either need a 121 or you don’t

Some DC who need 1:1 in a state MS don’t need it in all environments. For example, one case I supported last term had a child who had previously needed full-time 1:1 in state MS because of how overwhelming the environment was and the dysregulation that led to. Whereas, in a small, nurturing, slightly alternative independent mainstream, the environment is completely different and full-time 1:1 isn’t required.

Not all.

Our private school is 10k PA including VAT and is the only place many of its pupils can thrive - my estimate is that 50%-60% of pupils there have SEN but would struggle to get an EHCP or find another suitable provision as they just don't really exist. I really hope it doesn't price out the many parents scraping the money together for it.

Exactly this in DS' case. Thank you for getting it.

Absolutely this. In a class a third of the size with a teacher and TA, with a curriculum designed for wellbeing and plenty of non classroom time and consideration in terms of noise levels, nurture and real inclusion, it's amazing that many children can thrive without 1-1.

I’m aware of all the issues, one of my DS’s had extra time, I’m just not sure it made a material difference beyond keeping him calm. I also think there are many kids who struggle to read and write fast who may benefit from extra time but don’t have diagnosed disabilities.

No shit Sherlock.

Hmm so you're basing that on a sample size of 1?

My son's processing is very slow and with numerous SEN he will misread questions, skip over sentences, confuse numbers / words and can't hold information in his head. Extra time gives him a fighting chance.

It won’t though. WilL it? I for one think it’s worth seeing what happens.