AIBU to think that Bridget Phillipson is exaggerating the level of middle-class support for VAT on school fees?

[TepidWatersOfManagedDecline]

Bridget Phillipson has been quoted as saying that the policy is supported by "middle-class parents in good professional jobs with housing costs who just can't afford that level of fee" and want "brilliant state schools". www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c86wd1y7v2xo

Is this true, in your experience? Most middle-class parents with professional jobs who I’ve discussed this with think that it’s a spiteful policy (including those who don’t use the independent sector).

AIBU to think that Bridget Phillipson is exaggerating the level of support for the policy?

If all State school were like that it would be great. I would have happily sent mine somewhere like that.

It's not about 'boo hoo' poor little darling having to go to a state school blah blah blah rubbish. It's about having to move children who are settled to somewhere new. Some children will be fine, some will struggle. We moved our daughter mid year 2 when we moved house from 1 state school to another, both very good schools. But being very shy it took her a good 2 years to really settle and feel happy in her new school, as a ND child she really struggles with change.

People go on and on about 'it's only X percent', forgetting these are individual young children who are being used as political pawns. I hate the idea that some child is going to have to leave a school where they are settled, for the tiny chance that my child's state school will get a tiny bit better, doesn't matter if that child's parent is a builder or a banker, it's just a child whose parents are trying to do what they think is best for them, as we all are.

Um, not sure why you think I’m unaware that there are whole swathes of the UK apart from London?! At no point did I say that, in fact if you read my previous post responding to you, then hopefully you will be able to infer that I am alive to the fact this may be area dependent. Nonetheless, I would have thought it was pertinent to the OP’s question to explain the prevailing sentiment in my area.

I’m well aware of income disparities, but don’t make the mistake of assuming that everyone in SW London is wealthy. That is far from the case and there are large social housing estates where the kids could do with the boost of going to a high performing school, just as much as kids from the North East of England, where Philipson grew up. Remember Grenfell? Hugely deprived, yet in RBKC. Would you say those people living there are privileged? There are estates like this all over SWLondon, often next to £3million houses. In my book, those kids deserve chances too.

Unfortunately, her policy will mean fewer of them get the chance to get out from under, as the sharp-elbowed middle classes will always win out if there’s more of a scrum to get the good state school places. It was better for the working class kids when more MC went off to private.

Your post sounds very resentful, and while I can understand why, stereotyping hundreds of thousands of people as ‘wealthy’ is wildly inaccurate it’s the type of thing that leads to un-nuanced government policy.

They’re really not being used as political pawns. Every parent paying for private is making a gambol they’ll always be able to fund it. Many find they can’t and drop out. Children move schools all the time, most in far less favourable circumstances, parents needing to move their children from private because the can’t afford it only have themselves to blame.

I thought private school
parents loves a bit of well rounded resilience/ independence etc ?
This is the perfect chance to develop a bit of grit in kids who have pretty much had a easy life…
Children do change schools, all the times for all sorts of reasons… parents jobs, moving cities, divorces. House moves etc. it’s hardly unheard of.

"My own children have been in outstanding primary and secondary schools and are doing really well." Nice I'm alright Jack attitude! Has it ever crossed your mind that a large number of families is not so fortunate? Our two catchment schools both require improvement!

It’s not specific to London and to SE - Altrincham, Stratford on Avon, Birmingham, Liverpool, Wirral, Plymouth - where some of the top performing state schools are located - are not in the SE.

Yeah I am resentful and si are many many others. The widening gap between London /SE and the rest of the uk needs to stop as does the unfairness in education funding.

What’s the point of learning history or Eng Lit (let alone being a ‘Prof’ in it)?

Why bother with Shakespeare or Chaucer?

Fuck ‘em, I say. Learning Arabic or Chinese is all we need.

FWIW just want to register that I'm against it, although we're probably upper working class rather than middle class.

Since having children I've come across a fair few parents who've gone private for primary simply because they both work and it was a more cost effective way to cover childcare then state and childminder. And I don't blame them if that works for them. I'd expect that the addition of VAT may now make that an unaffordable option for at least some of those who would otherwise have done this.

I'm also against it, as PPs have referred to, as it's often private schools which provide suitable provision for SEND children, whether paid for by the Local Authority or the parents.

And I'm against it because I don't believe it will create extra resources for state schools, instead it's likely to be put more demand on them in some areas, so it's really a pointless gesture.

This is the perfect chance to develop a bit of grit in kids who have pretty much had a easy life…

What a nasty thing to say. Going to a private school doesn't guarantee that a child has never experienced poor health, disability, family breakdown, bereavement, physical/sexual/emotional abuse, neglect, bullying or mental health issues. Many children are taken out of state schools so that they can get better support for specific learning disabilities. In some schools a fairly high proportion come from lower income families and have been awarded bursaries.

The over representation of a few schools in the SE is widely recognised as is the North South attainment gap. You can ignore it if you like others aren’t. Would love to know why Plymouth is your list.

No many children aren’t and the jumping on the SEN bandwagon by the privately educated throughout this to further their cause has been despicable .

I really would ask that you think deeply about the way you are talking to people on here and ask whether that is helpful to what is a very sensitive subject for many. My son was born prematurely and nearly died several times in first year of life. He was left with mild learning difficulties. He was due to go into a class of 36 and could barely read and write when we made the difficult decision to move him. His younger sibling was also in a very big cohort which had massive behavioural problems. He has found moving schools hard. My kids have had grit and resilience. They don't need a Govt inflicting it on them for ideological reasons that won't help the state sector. All kids deserve better. This policy doesn't achieve that.

Quite. London actually has some of the highest rates of poverty in the country. 1 in 4 Londoners live in poverty and 16/32 areas have higher than average levels of poverty.

Two of the most deprived areas in whole of London are in K&C - Golborne is the number 1 with an IMD LSOA score of 46 (Index of multiple deprivation for lower super output areas). Notting Dale, where Grenfell is located is number 9 with a score of 40. Average house prices in K&C are 2.3 million.

Where is this governments big financial help for state schools? This policy is a total sleight of hand. It’s not helping state kids or private kids. Actually looks to make things worse.

The richest middle class parents will be raging. The more kids that leave private schools, then it’s more competition for the best state school places. And currently only the parents with money to spend on hyped up catchment area housing can afford to get their kids in there. Especially for places at the selective day schools or grammar schools that they send their expensively tutored kids to for free, while frowning at the parents who pay to use private schools.

Then more average income MC and WC parents who can only dream of affording private school will have noticed no government commitment to substantial funding for improving state schools, while their kids can look forward to greater competition for bursaries for private school places, and they have just had the fees put 20% further out of reach.

Many grammar schools dont have catchment areas, many kids do very long commutes.

I’m not ignoring anything, I’m pointing out this is not solely a SE issue as some of the best performing state schools are not in the SE - Altrincham, Sale, Wirral, Birmingham etc. That is what you are trying to ignore. They are mainly selective though. There’s a good girls grammar in Plymouth, that’s why, I could also have mentioned Colyton in Devon.

Agreed. Others do have catchments and entrance exams giving a double advantage to parents with money and experience of how selective schools work.

my reply was for M0rnington

We are in a similar situation to you, youngest was born with brain damage. Fortunately our local state has classes of around 20 and she is managing fine for now, but I appreciate our privilege in having that option available on our doorstep and without having to pay fees. They had excellent staffing levels and she is making good progress, but some of her individual support has been cut to cover the NI increase by labour.

But no one who has voiced support for this policy has articulated clearly and specifically how it is going to improve state schools beyond 'a bit more money'. That's the real kicker, all this for a 'maybe' a 'slightly'.

Plymouth is not an expensive area. Anybody looking at the top schools list will note the high saturation of schools from the SE with a few from elsewhere peppered through. It is well known that elite schools in the SE have been over represented in Oxbridge. Most selective don’t have catchments and have children travelling long distances.

First have to define middle class. 7%overall go to private schools. Some will be old money gentry so upper class. Some will be from working class backgrounds who have made lots of money from being a shortage of workers. Some will be criminals (any class???). A minority will be very disadvantaged with bursaries. So need to know what is middle class (professional careers??? Or just anyone who doesn't to manual work???) then know how many.

If I sent my children to private school I might still want vat because id want their employees to have a bit more understanding and not mesd things up and to have more choice of employees

The unwillingness of Labour supporting MNers ever to accept that people with enough money choose to move for state schools in pricier catchments is incredible.

But it seems it’s ok to game the state system and to use your money on tutoring, crammers, improving holidays in France and theatre trips, so long as Rosie and Noah can go to Oxbridge or medical school while the parents boast of their opposition to private schooling. 🙄

Holidays to France and theatre trips don’t get you into Oxbridge- private education and living in the South hugely bump up your chances hence the squealing by the rich now edged out of the private system .