Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

This country as gone into terminal decline

1000 replies

Carmes · 29/12/2024 08:38

I have 2 young children in school.

I am becoming more and more anxious about what sort of jobs / careers they will have open to them.

I work for very large company with 10,000s of employees.

20 years ago whe I started work here there would be 100s of entry level jobs at any given time. These are jobs that don't require experience or a degree, ideal for a school leaver, and I know dozens of people who started their career this way.

Now there are maybe 10 jobs that would fit the same criteria.so. All the jobs have been offshored.
Now are the vacancies are for very specific technical skill set or experience.

This doesn't bode well for someone who has left school at 18'or even university.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
Strikeoutnow · 29/12/2024 14:37

@MyPithyPoster I have colleagues with dc who would fall into this category

shockeditellyou · 29/12/2024 14:42

Strikeoutnow · 29/12/2024 14:22

Business & the country is up in arms that they have to pay a small extra bit of NI, how do you you think they'd react if asked to part fund an insurance based model, costing them 100s of billions?

Quite, the NI increase is going to destroy the economy & reduce jobs so I’m not sure why the extra funding for healthcare will be so easily absorbed.

Jeremy Hunt cut NI by 2p just before the Tories lost the election. Businesses were coping fine before the 2p cut but apparently now returning to the status quo ante will destroy them? I don’t think so.

TempestTost · 29/12/2024 14:44

Strikeoutnow · 29/12/2024 14:16

Maybe but the part that is missing from your sentence is need to raise taxes...and spend it wisely.**

But everyone has their own opinion on what this looks like. @MyPithyPoster wants to reduce healthcare spend for older people but that’s not going down well.

One of the underlying problems is that we haven't really faced how to deal with care as people get older, and we also have really expanded what counts as healthcare a lot since socialized care came on the scene.

Back when the NHS was developed it was seen much differently in terms of what should be covered. Not just explicitly, but also people's underlying sense of when they should look for care, which is a really significant element of how the service is used.

I think part of MyPithy's point is that we know all of us will eventually die, no matter what interventions we make. There is a decreasing cost benefit to them, which is an important thing to consider - as much as it seems off to us, cost is an important part of how we decide what health care to fund.

For example we might fund one childhood vaccine, because it pays for itself, but not another because the cost doesn't justify the benefit to the system - and the limited money in the system would be more effectively used for some other initiative. That seems to be the part people forget when they are talking about a system with limited resources - yes, you can choose to fund very inefficient treatments "just to save one life" but the fact is you are then not funding something else.

But with care as people become elderly, it's not just the moetary element, there are also questions about quality of life, and quality of life when we extend it significantly through interventions. There have always been some people who live very long lives in fairly good health - but the important point is those are people who did not require many serious interventions. They were not having heart surgery, or living with heart failure for decades into their late 80s, or cancer treatment. They lived a long time because they were naturally lucky and had a long term healthy lifestyle.

When people have very interventionist treatments in old age they may live longer but often with a very poor quality of life.

Does this mean they should be refused treatment - no, not necessarily. But I think it does suggest we need to rethink our attitudes to treatment in various ways, and maybe how they are presented to patients and system users. Medical people are often much less likely to have these kinds of interventions themselves, which should tell us something. Part of the problem is people don't face up to the fact that death, and the things that lead up to death, are inevitable - and they will face them eventually whatever treatments they take now. Making choices because we fear death itself is fundamentally illogical (though very human) because nothing changes that particular outcome.

NewYearNewL · 29/12/2024 14:45

I agree @Carmes

what I really can't get over is that I honestly thought no government could be as bad as the last conservative government led by Johnson and I had such high hopes for Starmer.

all their policies are utterly fcking us over which ever way you look - fuel payments, this mad building of houses everywhere, VAT on private school fees ( I don't have a horse in that race but it was pretty obvious that it would lead to school closers and greater pressure on state schools without improving state schools.), GPs its all fckd.

This is what we will be facing everywhere. More and more houses, more strain on local services and no additional infrastructure at all. GPs already oversubscribed will just go into melt down. Same for roads, schools, hospitals. It's like they asked a bunch of 5 year olds to come up with some nice ideas to run the country without thinking about the consequences.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14221449/NIMBY-developer-homes-Kent-build-50m-infrastructure-roads-school.html

NIMBY nightmare: How developer REFUSED to build £50m infrastructure

EXCLUSIVE: People in Ashford, Kent, are fuming after Hodson, the lead housebuilder behind a 6,000-home development, announced plans to pull £50m of funding for roads and schools.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14221449/NIMBY-developer-homes-Kent-build-50m-infrastructure-roads-school.html

Justforfun123 · 29/12/2024 14:45

Whether you like to admit it or not someone mentioned adjusting to the times and the modern situation and they are right. That applies to shared ownership all the young families I know living comfortably with more than two kids are doing shared ownership. While people save up for a regular mortgage until they're biologically at the point they struggle to conceive or rent privately and get evicted at the whim of a landlord and have to find a new place on short notice or live in a b and b with school age kids having to share a room in a b and b with mum dad and siblings. Can you imagine being that kid can't even invite friends over

Shared ownership is pretty much the only way nowadays unless you have a really high income

QueenOfHiraeth · 29/12/2024 14:48

I haven't read the full thread but haven't seen this mentioned.

I blame a lot of this on our education system. We have had years of teachers telling children they cannot fail, that they are as good as anyone else and to follow their dreams / find their "passion" career-wise. We turn out young people with poor literacy, numeracy and generally low levels of education who think they are entitled to go in at the top or be handed megabucks for being an influencer without any talent, clue or plan.
Before retirement I often had contact with young people on work experience and found that work was an alien concept to many of them, they had no awareness that they may have to do jobs that were not their first choice on the way to their goal. I recently spoke to someone who works for a large finance company who was bemoaning the number of graduates they lose each year because they did not expect to do "menial" work and have people managing them because they thought they would come straight out of university and into advising Jeff Bezos how to run his business despite no relevant experience.

As long as young people are "educated" into thinking they do need to be informed and work hard, the country has no hope

User135644 · 29/12/2024 14:48

Everything is trending downwards. I wouldn't have children now.

TempestTost · 29/12/2024 14:53

MyPithyPoster · 29/12/2024 14:27

Let’s just say they left with the idea that the degree was the end of the road rather than the beginning of the journey and the only place they got that idea from was the university. They certainly didn’t get that from us. Now they’ve started work The Penny has indeed dropped that they know very little and have a long way to go.
Both are now doing masters alongside working full-time.

Which to be honest, they should’ve been doing whilst studying for an undergraduate degree. That was probably my mistake thinking that it was better to concentrate on getting top grades.

Yes, I think work experience counts for a lot now. Especially since good grades are so much easier to get. Good work skills are not so easy to find.

TempestTost · 29/12/2024 14:57

lifeonmars100 · 29/12/2024 14:31

This from the ONS " 22 Feb 2024 — There were an estimated 559,000 young people in the UK who were NEET and economically inactive"

This is frankly crazy and is similar in many other countries.

And I'm sorry, I don't think the reason is that life is uniquely hard now.

I think a lot of young people think if they struggle, others should support them. It does not seem to occur to them that you need a lot of people to support everyone who struggles. And most of us have struggles for that matter.

There is no strong sense that they have an obligation to support themselves, much less a need to do so. Not being supported is seen as an injustice.

rainingsnoring · 29/12/2024 15:00

TempestTost · 29/12/2024 14:57

This is frankly crazy and is similar in many other countries.

And I'm sorry, I don't think the reason is that life is uniquely hard now.

I think a lot of young people think if they struggle, others should support them. It does not seem to occur to them that you need a lot of people to support everyone who struggles. And most of us have struggles for that matter.

There is no strong sense that they have an obligation to support themselves, much less a need to do so. Not being supported is seen as an injustice.

Sure but why do you think that is? Have you not noticed the policies since the GFC? Everyone who over leveraged themselves has been bailed out in the last 16 years. Of course young people now expect it because this is what has happened their whole lives. Even worse, this has particularly favoured the banks and the already wealthy. Given this, it's hardly an unexpected or unreasonable supposition is it?

Cesarina · 29/12/2024 15:00

shockeditellyou · 29/12/2024 14:42

Jeremy Hunt cut NI by 2p just before the Tories lost the election. Businesses were coping fine before the 2p cut but apparently now returning to the status quo ante will destroy them? I don’t think so.

Good point!
We have such short memories don't we?

Solent123 · 29/12/2024 15:05

Gary's economics brought out a new video this morning, he thinks that in a couple of years Labour will realise that they haven't improved the economy and do some kind of re-brand, he also still thinks that taxing the super rich is the only way to stop the decline and the ever increasing gap between rich and poor, he's never actually gone into detail though on how spending the extra taxation will fix everything.

I'd be interested in seeing how the UK can move to similar economic models of countries that are doing well and have a higher standard or living, e.g. Switzerland, Denmark, Norway, Finland.

Bagpuss2022 · 29/12/2024 15:08

Yeah I agree my eldest has just completed his masters and has a remote digital job alongside his part time managers job in retail to pay the bills my middle is a qualified plumber so he’s done well , I’m really worried about our youngest who’s still in high school she wants to join the forces after university but we will see .

Noras · 29/12/2024 15:08

Strikeoutnow · 29/12/2024 14:24

Overall we need the shrink the population by having fewer kids.

Where are you talking about @Noras? We are not growing our population here by having dc.

Table below shows, even though Japan's population declined 2.0% during the period 2012-2022, its per capita GDP, a rough approximation of the overall productivity of the Japanese people, rose by about 7.5%, a much greater increase than the 2.0% decrease in its population. As a result its GDP still grew by 4.7%, and the increase in GDP per capita produced a higher standard of living for the Japanese people.[15][16]

Economic consequences of population decline - Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_consequences_of_population_decline#cite_note-:6-16

Vignoble · 29/12/2024 15:08

Cesarina · 29/12/2024 15:00

Good point!
We have such short memories don't we?

I recall it was the employee rate of NIC Hunt cut. If I am correct, there would have been no effect on businesses, all things equal. Your comment may not therefore be correct.

Noras · 29/12/2024 15:12

We need to increase productivity per person and decrease the population. That’s the only way to improve things.

We need to extend productive years eg more apprenticeships instead of universities and keeping people in work until late 60s. We should also make all refugees eligible for some form of productive work pending leave to remain decisions - it’s crazy to have people sitting around doing nothing.

Noras · 29/12/2024 15:14

Cesarina · 29/12/2024 15:00

Good point!
We have such short memories don't we?

It was the workers contribution that was cut so more technically into pay packets but the feel good was off set by fiscal drag on personal tax allowances and tax brackets and higher mortgages etc. In other words it was swallowed up.

Strikeoutnow · 29/12/2024 15:15

We need to increase productivity per person and decrease the population. That’s the only way to improve things.

@Noras so you want to kill older people?

Shitgift · 29/12/2024 15:15

Echobelly · 29/12/2024 09:25

I'm certainly very worried about my kids' future. DH has suggested, and I'm inclined to agree, we should encourage them to look move abroad for opportunities, but the downside to that is I don't see where! Certainly not America and none of us speaks another language fluently, and I wouldn't suggest Australia and NZ as I think climate change is going to make it hard to live in those places within their lifetimes at this rate.

We're in London and unless they get City jobs (which I don't see either of them doing, nor would want them to do just for the money) I'm not sure how they live independently as the cruddiest flatshare in outer London will set you back £800 a month these days and the meanest studio flat on the outer edges starts at quarter of a million to buy and we don't have 6 figure sums tucked under our sofa.

We do seem to be descending into oligarchy where only the mega rich have influence.

Is learning another language as a family with a goal to emigrating out to that country and option. Of all the barriers surely learning a foreign language is one of the easier to be broken down. Visas and work eligibility on the other hand...

Shitgift · 29/12/2024 15:16

I'm currently learning French with the notion that I might move there in early retirement as my money will go a lot further out there and the lifestyle is much better.

Strikeoutnow · 29/12/2024 15:17

@Noras no idea why you are telling me about Japan? The UK birth rates have plummeted…

rainingsnoring · 29/12/2024 15:18

Cesarina · 29/12/2024 15:00

Good point!
We have such short memories don't we?

That was a small reduction to employee's NI combined with an underhand rise in income tax. It was also a cynical attempt to get rid of NI and therefore claim, in the future, that people were not entitled to state pension imo.

This situation is different and comes at a time when SMEs have faced challenge after challenge and we are very likely already in recession, or about to enter one if not. Increasing employers's NI contribution is simply going to increase the already inevitable rise in unemployment.

Noras · 29/12/2024 15:23

Strikeoutnow · 29/12/2024 15:15

We need to increase productivity per person and decrease the population. That’s the only way to improve things.

@Noras so you want to kill older people?

No as I said the World needs to produce fewer people and at the same time increase productivity. As global movement is impossible to stop it has to be a worldwide thing. We can have X or Y immigration policy but countries are not fortresses and moreover elite capitalism always wants a cheap work force and will always want more people to keep wages low.

As it is, the Worlds population will begin to decline in 2080 onwards just as more AI kicks in.

( produce not terminate ie fewer babies including from the Third World so no idea where you get the idea about elderly people? Somewhat bizarre and inflammatory?!)

Noras · 29/12/2024 15:28

rainingsnoring · 29/12/2024 15:18

That was a small reduction to employee's NI combined with an underhand rise in income tax. It was also a cynical attempt to get rid of NI and therefore claim, in the future, that people were not entitled to state pension imo.

This situation is different and comes at a time when SMEs have faced challenge after challenge and we are very likely already in recession, or about to enter one if not. Increasing employers's NI contribution is simply going to increase the already inevitable rise in unemployment.

Labour were absolute lunatics to introduce this as the same time as all the other changes eg increase in minimum wage etc.

They should have floated the way or away from recession not driven fall speed into it due to the so called ‘black hole.’ That could have been cured by increased productivity/ consumer confidence and greater tax takes. Now they will have lower tax taxes and a diminishing base from which to draw taxes so higher taxes.

Sadly most people in Labour have not run a business or indeed worked for many years in the private sector etc so don’t understand that business confidence and consumer confidence are critical things.

Strikeoutnow · 29/12/2024 15:29

Most countries have declining birth rates apart from some African countries which have much younger populations. But a child in one of those countries has a far smaller carbon footprint than a child in the West. Plus we are talking about the UK & an ageing population is impacting our economic prospects.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.