To think men and women are actually programmed differently?

[Isittjustme]

I have spent many years believing a lot of men just don’t get on with things in the same way women do (ie ‘seeing’ the jobs to do in the house etc) because they are socially conditioned not to. But… since having ds and watching my partner really do his best but basically be far less good at parenting than me, I have started to wonder if men and women are actually just programmed differently.

DP really does try (at least I believe so). But he doesn’t get a good system going with ds when doing a nappy, just one example, he will often be flailing around or forget to wash his hands etc. He will forget to blow on the food every once in a while.. there’s so many more examples and they are small things I guess, but in contrast I rarely do these things. And I’m not saying I’m a perfect parent, I’m not. But I recognise this with my friends and the men in their lives too, it’s the same sort of thing.

DP has a good job and does it well. He’s quite a sincere man and I think he really does try his best. This makes me think perhaps some of it is innate for women and not for men?

DS4 also recently asked me why boys and girls tend to like different things.

Because they're told they do from a very young age.

Anybody that has brought up or seen baby boys to young boys, and baby girls to young girls, can tell you the differences are inbuilt. No programming required at all. Daniel Amen the brain specialist says how scans of male and female brains are sooo different.

@NunyaBeeswax reminds me of a uni BF. We were talking on the phone.

Him: I'm staaaaaarving.

Me: eat something then.

Him: can't. Mum's not home.

Me: so what? Surely there's something in the fridge.

Him: yeah , but I'm waiting for mum to come home and cook.

Me: starve then.

We broke up because I wasn't very sympathetic.

I'd have belittled him for about a month first...

Feeble. I can't stand it..

I've been single for a while now.. can't think why.. 🤪🤣

And on your sample size of two, you’re entirely happy to refute peer-reviewed, large-scale studies.

Er, no, I'm saying the studies I've seen have been consistent with my personal experience.

But you're making judgement on a man who was raised male and with all the social male conditioning and then saying it's genetic.

I suspect he just doesn't have the same emphasis on stuff like washing his hands - he's probably less likely to do it after the loo or during cooking etc as you. Ours just lower down his priorities because he's judged the consequences as less significant than you. Maybe not consciously but things like blowing the food every mouthful - if it's hurting baby and he's not been Ng more considerate that's obviously a concern because his child's welfare should be top of his list. If baby eats it fine or just doesn't take it then it's less likely to move up as it's not something causing a consequence to him. You may feel guilty that he's turned his head from it or worry he swallowed it but it'll burn his insides, so the consequences in your head are higher.

I don't know how you can prove that's his Y chromosome over his being raised male tho

The next person such as myself will have the opposite personal experience though.

My DS loves baby dolls and stuffed toys. His favourite Christmas present was easily his new baby doll.

They are definitely socialised differently.. often have different societal expectations and pressures on them as they grow up..
I think that can make it seem sometimes as though we are different species.
But we aren't.
There may be some biological/hormonal influences but I reckon they don't make as much difference as the different way girls and boys are raised. And the adults they look up to as examples.

I agree- not for the reasons you have stated. But men and women are biologically different with generally different “cocktails” of hormones that influence how we generally behave. I do believe that we react differently based on our primal roles - but I believe a lot of that is removed in civilisations that have the tech to even out the playing field.

Everything else is down to personalities and surroundings.

When I see my son and daughter - and I hear stories from people that have had to raise both genders - yes, there are general differences between boys and girls. When I look at the way men and women interact in packs - I notice that there are differences there too. But these differences are strengths - not weaknesses.

We are not programmed different.

We have distinct biological differences, but men and women are equally capable of learning stuff. Be it engineering, child care, cooking, driving, social skills, sailing, cleaning etc.

Can he drive? That involves holding a lot of things in his brain and paying attention to multiple, simultaneous visual and audio cues - many of them in his peripheral vision.

Exactly the same as paying attention to a 2 year old while cooking. If he can do one, he can do the other

That study was junk. Further investigation showed they all preferred the cars. But there weren't enough to go round and the males were bigger and stronger, so could bully females into giving them up.

As for whether it transfers to humans, I had no interest whatsoever in dolls (once I'd taken their heads off to see how the blinking mechanism worked). Cars and trains were much more fun.

You're suffering a bad case of confirmation bias.

I often wonder if when people moved away from religion, they just didn't scratch out the word God and replace it with the word Society. Where before, human nature was was seen as a construct of God, now it is seen almost entirely as a construct of society or 'socaliation'. It's as if we're terrified to countenance the idea that we are just highly evolved social animals with heritable traits similar to what is observed across any number of species.

They aren’t.

Misogynist conditioning tells women that “men are just programmed that way” so that women continue to settle for low effort, mediocre partners.

Exactly this ...

And society tells us what it is appropriate for a man or woman (boy or girl) to learn. We learn our roles in society and respond to 'feedback' which reinforces the roles we play.

Regards the different cocktail of hormones, a few weeks back I seen a video on YouTube of a transwoman who was bisexual before transitioning, and within weeks of taking estrogen she only had interest in men. Wish I could remember what the video was called but she said her sexuality altered as did many of her interests. The feminising therapy took away some of the likes she had before.

I find it all fascinating and wish we could swap bodies for a week with the opposite sex like Kate Bush says, it would solve a lot of problems. Especially the sex side
But just look at the gift threads.. I know loads of men get it right, but so many more are just terrible at it. Child rearing. Maybe the men who are great at it just really have to try hard as it's not instinctual. Maybe the men with less testosterone are the better ones at it. Who knows

OH used to be terrible and he's now great, but it had to come from him. Change is possible if there's willingness. There's no reason to change though when the standards are low, anything goes and excuses are made. 'Cause penis.

Often mothers do have a clue because as girls we were taught to care for younger siblings or would earn money by babysitting.

The Girl Scouts troop I was sent to by my mum even used to run Red Cross certifications in infant CPR, infant care and so on that you could get as young as age 12. We practiced everything from bathing, nappy changing, dressing, feeding winding with dolls…. So by age 12 I was a Red Cross certified babysitter and went out and started to earn money babysitting from newborn on up in the afternoons and evenings after school.

So many of us start motherhood with years of practice. If we had no practice, maternity leave is the crash course that does it.

The gift threads are full of people falling over to make excuses for men and having low standards for men because they ‘just aren’t good at it’. If society doesn’t expect it, of course that’s what will happen.

I think men are programmed to meet their own needs, and socialised to not take ownership of things that don’t serve them.

@BlueSilverCats @SouthLondonMum22
Very true, I've experienced a man who was useless and then after a big talk he changed and then got me amazing presents that were perfect for me every year after that. He was honest and said presents and stuff like that just doesn't enter into their heads but he then made the effort and it was great. They just need to make the effort. It's not hard and the result is worth it.
Instead most of them can't be bothered to make the small effort twice a year and don't care that it makes their partners sad. I can't imagine being like that

I suspect the vast majority of not all of the programming comes from how we raise children and has far less to do with innate capabilities

OP, I'm afraid that's bollocks

How do you account for all the men who are excellent parents and good at housework?

Or all the women who aren't?

The difference is that somethings are expected of women that aren't expected of men and others are tolerated in men when they are not tolerated in women.

It's socialisation and nurture more than anything.