To think men and women are actually programmed differently?

[Isittjustme]

I have spent many years believing a lot of men just don’t get on with things in the same way women do (ie ‘seeing’ the jobs to do in the house etc) because they are socially conditioned not to. But… since having ds and watching my partner really do his best but basically be far less good at parenting than me, I have started to wonder if men and women are actually just programmed differently.

DP really does try (at least I believe so). But he doesn’t get a good system going with ds when doing a nappy, just one example, he will often be flailing around or forget to wash his hands etc. He will forget to blow on the food every once in a while.. there’s so many more examples and they are small things I guess, but in contrast I rarely do these things. And I’m not saying I’m a perfect parent, I’m not. But I recognise this with my friends and the men in their lives too, it’s the same sort of thing.

DP has a good job and does it well. He’s quite a sincere man and I think he really does try his best. This makes me think perhaps some of it is innate for women and not for men?

You’re so very vexed it’s hard to establish what is your point
and yes I can read.i read voraciously

DH and I are equal attachment figures and then mine are also attached to their nursery keyworker.

Well I breastfed and held my baby all day and it nearly killed me. I’ve never suffered from any sort of depression, but breastfeeding was horrendous for me and our baby. I’m pro breastfeeding and pro bottle feeding. Just do what’s right for your family.

Bottles turned out to be amazing for me, I felt I could relax, the fog lifted and form what I felt was a bond with my child. Just wish I did it sooner.

My DH is at least as competent at me when it comes to parenting and housework, if not more so.

@Spaceid

Obviously I'm generalizing, but I do think there is such a thing as maternal instinct. But then again I do think it's how you grew up as many women who weren't around kids a lot don't have the instinct.

Anyway, I think it's more common for women to desire kids and be better at taking care of them. Obviously there are outliers.

No. These are all learned skills and behaviours, men are just as capable as women and vice versa. Patriarchy’s last gasp is to try and convince us that men just can’t grasp basic parenting and household management so we women have to do it so ooops we have less time and energy to be CEOs or A&E doctors.

It’s a fucking lie. Just like we can, they can too.

Sounds like utter nonsense. I don't think seeing jobs in the house, washing hands scrupulously and blowing on food are innate for any gender. That's just social conditioning to perceive such behaviour as "maternal" or feminine or whatever you're trying to imply.

My DH is as good, if not a better parent than i am. He does more than i do, but we have different methods.

I'd say we're not just programmed differently, we're also running on completely different hardware.

The programming is learned. Men are more predisposed to be lazier, and less likely to put themselves out for other people than women are. Society teaches women to "be kind", but teaches men that women will handle the busywork.

But that's learned behaviour, it's caused by the way we're treated growing up. And learned behaviour can be unlearned, changed. Bug-fixed, to stretch the programming metaphor.

However, some things can't be changed. Men as a sex are better at spatial awareness, women better at multitasking. That's not learned behaviour, there are differences in the structures of our brain and it's chemistry that facilitate these different skills. The hardware is fundamentally different.

Wholeheartedly agree
we need to stop excusing domestic male inadequacies , oh diddums it’s the way he’s wired. It’s a tired harmful trope. Men are working and multitasking daily they can and do demonstrate these skills when they have to. Unfortunately some women cut them slack and acquiesce to faux incompetence

This.

It’s the opposite in my house. No kids, but I promise you up and down that I do not see the ‘mess’ my husband sees. Even trying my best I cannot do housework as well as him. I’m a woman. He’s a man. There’s no inherent gender difference, we’re just different people with different perspectives and different skills.

No. Nope
Read Cordelia fine - Delusions of Gender – How Our Minds, Society, and Neurosexism Create Difference
men aren’t naturally better at spatial design. Architecture courses have sizeable amount female students.Zaha Hadid did exemplary work (for a woman😉)

However, some things can't be changed. Men as a sex are better at spatial awareness, women better at multitasking. That's not learned behaviour…

Yes it is learned behaviour.

Spatial awareness includes real life examples like if a toddler with a mass of 7kg moving at velocity of 8mph is dashing on a collision course with older sibling swinging forward on a swing with the curved trajectory of x to the h at a velocity of 13mph, and you are 3ms away you have just enough seconds to run in pursuit and grab toddler before he is bowled over and requires a trip to A&E.

The above requires more spatial awareness than landing an aeroplane.

Can men multi-task? Yes they can. Having affairs and living a double life is the pinnacle of multi-tasking and apparently two thirds of men do it for fun.

Men are more predisposed to be lazier,

Men can afford to be lazier because they normally have someone else to pick up the slack(generally a woman), plus they're held to less higher standards, so anything goes.

Mainly due to bs like this.

Yes, or maybe you’re the outlier as you don’t know every woman or man in the world? It has certainly not been the experience of my close friends. The majority of the group were male who were pushing for babies. They also did at least half the load. There is also paternal instinct, I would say parental instinct affects the majority. I’m sorry you’ve not experienced both parents being fully and actively involved, but that has been the norm for me and not the exception.

However, some things can't be changed. Men as a sex are better at spatial awareness, women better at multitasking. That's not learned behaviour…
Yes it is learned behaviour.

Yes it is. Do you not think running a building site requires a lot of multitasking? That’s mostly men doing that. Behaviour is learnt, it’s literally the definition.

A lot of it is strategic incompetence. No new parent (male or female) has the first clue about how to change a nappy or wrangle a baby's limbs in and out of a sleepsuit. You have to learn how to do it, and guess who gets the most practice?

I have limited sympathy for these coach load of women stepping into undertake tasks men do suboptimally. Stop being a martyr. He can do it.

Agree with this. There have even been studies showing male and female monkeys prefer different sorts of toys (dolls vs cars). DS4 also recently asked me why boys and girls tend to like different things.

I had a partner who couldn't do the washing up properly...
"Can't you do it" , he'd whine.. "I can't get it as clean as you...." Sad face...
"..... Well, fucking learn or eat from dirty plates"

Another one made a big deal about how I was better at mopping the kitchen than he was and how it takes him twice as long... Wah wah wah..
"Couldn't give a shit how long it takes you, it's your time your wasting, I'm off out..."
Amazingly, he got much quicker...

Then there was the "let's split the chores" conversation.
"Interesting" says I, "all the chores you've decided are yours, are things you enjoy doing... Mowing the lawn? washing the car?... And all my chores are things you dislike doing..."
"I just split them by what we're good at.." he says..
"..... If you're good at mowing the lawn, why's it take my half hour but it takes you three hours with two of those hours being sitting in the shed?"

(All my exes are exes for reasons... Most will you tell you I'm a twat.... most will be right.. 🤣)

How is a primate study replicable and relevant to humans? Umm it isn’t

But there have been more studies debunking this fallacy.

So ignorant yet so confident 😂

Possibly there have been. The studies I've seen have reinforced my observations that preferences are mostly innate. DS was never interested in baby dolls or stuffed toys so we didn't have any until DD was born, and at 1yo she started pointing at them in shop windows. It was never anything I cared about or encouraged.

Fair summation of yourself ,you omitted the quirky 😂 ⬅️ that nailed it
Google Cordelia Fine

Not really. There are some very practical people (both men and women) and when they are also a bit controlling (like to be in charge is probably a nicer way of putting it) they tend to assume everyone is incompetent around them. Mumsnetters are frequently like this. I am perfectly capable but have no issue with others taking charge. I go with it and let them tell me how to peel a carrot, or whatever, because it makes them feel good about themselves. I used to teach food technology and teenage boys are just as capable of reading a recipe, bringing in ingredients, organising a work area, cooking a good meal and cleaning up as the girls are. Why wouldn’t they be? If one of the girls wandered up and told them they were washing up wrong, they would let the girl take over ( and vice versa).