Aibu to think wombs, virgin or otherwise, are not abhorent?

[PencilsInSpace]

Just got back from midnight service where we sang o come all ye faithful which praises christ for not abhoring the virgin womb.

I'm an atheist but culturally Christian and have sung those lyrics throughout my childhood without a second thought but they're awful aren't they?

Is a belief in the abhorrence of wombs central to Christianity or is it time to bin that verse, just as that verse from all things bright and beautiful about everyone staying in their place was binned?

It's just pointing out that generally babies abhor, meaning avoid, and therefore don't appear in, the womb of a virgin. It's just reinforcing the message of Mary's miraculous conception. Nowt to do with wombs being generally abhorrent.

Also the next line is 'very god' - what kind of a shite lyric is that?

I sing in a church choir and noticed lots of objectionable things this year, and also found all the talk of giving birth a bit triggering. But I did have a great talk with a great woman preacher who put me onto some feminist writing about this very thing, so perhaps there's hope things will improve.

Surely "very God" is referring to Jesus being the human incarnation of God?
Anything else you want to pick apart?

I also sing in a church choir and dislike this line! There’s lots of misogynistic stuff like this. Like « how silently the wondrous gift is given »- who gives birth in silence?

I have always hated that verse. It makes me cringe.

There's a lot of things from the 18th century we wouldn't phrase that way today! I've heard this hymn sung with different lyrics actually, something about entering the virgin's womb.

I'm not convinced. Abhor is a very strong word and these are just lyrics written by a bloke in the 18th century, it's not a quote from the bible. I think it's time to bin them.

I have always found it fascinating that we just accept these glaringly awful lyrics because of tradition and sentiment (and I love Christmas carols myself!)

I can remember teasing my very progressive political lesbian English teacher because I had noticed her not singing during "Be thou my vision" in assembly (I was pointing out that I would have got detention if I hadn't sung, I was a bit of a wannabe Wat Tyler at school). She raised an eyebrow and said "there are some words I just won't say. I'm a 47 year old woman, I don't want to be anybody's true son" (the line is "be thou my great father and I thy true son"). I paid much more attention to what I was actually singing after that.

See I would have thought that meant without fanfare, it wasn't a king being born with trumpets and everyone celebrating.

Indeed. These are poems. They are designed to be interpreted literally

Very here means true - as in the French word vrai.

Oh I'd never considered that one 😬

@deplorabelle sounds interesting, do you mind sharing the names of the feminist writers?

Loads, probably but I just realised it's 2am.

Is there a reason you think I shouldn't pick apart hymn lyrics written by 18th century men?

Wilful ignorance is not as clever and edgy as you think it is.

abhor (v.)
c. 1400, "to loathe, regard with repugnance, dislike intensely," literally "to shrink back with horror or dread," from Latin abhorrere "shrink back from, have an aversion for, shudder at," from ab "off, away from" (see ab-) + horrere "tremble at, shudder," literally "to bristle, be shaggy" (from PIE ghers- "start out, stand out, rise to a point, bristle;" see horror*).

www.etymonline.com/word/abhor

Please do enlighten me.

It always seemed very weird to me that at my all girls school, we sang a hymn starting “Oh brother man”.

It’s a bad translation, either deliberately or accidentally, from the original Latin.

Not that the original translates brilliantly into English if you go for the literal translation of ‘gestant puellae viscera’, it’s ‘gestating in a girl’s guts’, so the best translation that captures what was meant is ‘grown in a virgin’s womb/grown inside the virgin’.

Didn’t realise my edgy preteen cousin used MN

I thought it was about not abhoring the world of flesh generally, what with it being potentially a bit of a comedown for God to come and live on earth and be born as a mortal.

Archaic usage as in "verily" - ie "truly"

I heard a fab sermon from a v feminist vicar on the "abhors not" line. Can't remember the details enough to reproduce it, but you certainly aren't the first ti wonder about that lyric.

If I had chosen atheism, I don't think I'd try to lead the charge to change the lyrics of Christian hymns. We all have certain lyrics we like less than others, but that doesn't mean we need to bin the ones that don't speak to us personally.

Aside from that, when I read that line, I think about nature abhorring a vacuum. I don't view it as a value-loaded statement or a suggestion that any womb would be abhorrent. Considering the repeated Biblical command to 'go forth and multiply', it would be a strange position to take, as an author of Christian hymns.

"Very" means "true" in that line. Do you know any French or Spanish?