Aibu to think wombs, virgin or otherwise, are not abhorent?

[PencilsInSpace]

Just got back from midnight service where we sang o come all ye faithful which praises christ for not abhoring the virgin womb.

I'm an atheist but culturally Christian and have sung those lyrics throughout my childhood without a second thought but they're awful aren't they?

Is a belief in the abhorrence of wombs central to Christianity or is it time to bin that verse, just as that verse from all things bright and beautiful about everyone staying in their place was binned?

I always took it to mean she had an easy birth cos it was God's son.

Surely no-one is forcing you to sing? How about you just mind your own business and let the rest get on with it. You might think you are a VERY IMPORTANT PERSON who can dictate what hymns/songs are "binned", but I have news for you .......

"Very God" is a reference to Jesus being the true son of God ("very" meaning "true" in this context, as in the French "vrai").

It's not like "oh yes, that's very God that, how like him. It's just SO HIM to do that!"

Sorry, posted before RTFT, I see others have already noted the "very " meaning 😊

Whilst I certainly did not give birth in silence, some women do. It tends to be cultural and I’ve not witnessed it many times.
Going back to our cave times, a noisy labour could have attracted predators and it’s possible women did give birth in relative silence.

Yes that line is a bit cringey. Also various references to baby Jesus never crying ("no crying he makes", "silent night")

Re 'How silently' - certainly some (perhaps all?) Catholics believe that labour pain was a consequence of the Fall as depicted in Genesis, and that Mary, a sinless woman (and the new Eve) giving birth to a sinless God incarnate (and the new Adam), therefore didn't experience it. From that POV, just silently 'breathing' Jesus out seems a bit more likely!

Personally, I've always liked the pseudo archaic bits in Ding Dong Merrily ('swungen'?!) and the odd syntax in The Angel Gabriel ('For known a blessed mother thou shalt be' - it's just tortured)!

I love swungen, too! And some of the iffy rhymes that sort of work written down but not when sung. Hence my new username in fact ("...the blessed babe to find" rhyming with "tempest, storm and wind" in God Rest Ye Merry)

I would say silently meant as in given without a fuss, humbly, as Jesus was born humbly in a stable.

I’ve always interpreted, ‘no crying he makes’ as metaphorical, as in Jesus coming to the earth to do the will of God and not make a fuss about it.

Interesting discussion. I started thinking about lines in hymns a few years ago. They’re written by people and therefore not always good to sing along to blindly.

Also the next line is 'very god' - what kind of a shite lyric is that?

"Very" in its original meaning of "true", "real" or "genuine". From the Latin verus via old French verai. See also "veritable", "verify", etc.

I'm not here to defend religion, but the objections above don't make sense.

If abhor is meant pejoratively then Jesus is being praised for not doing that.

If silent birth is unrealistic, it's in a line emphasising how unusual his arrival was.

Very here certainly means true not extremely.

Fair enough not to sing a song you think is patriarchal, but not on the grounds that it's not literally applicable to you (son). Many/most songs are figurative.

Decrying the unenlightenment of a Bronze Age religion this way is like taking aim at a barn, and missing.

Ivyy, I'm not deplorabelle, but you might like books by Rachel Held Evans, or there is a recent more scholarly book The Mary We Forgot.

OP - I think you have a point. Though I was picking apart the lyrics of Good King Wenceslas yesterday (is he not a bit up himself to know that his footprints are heat-giving?).

My mum did. My brother was in the next room as she had me at home. I was 9 pounds 4 and she never made a sound. My dad and the GP were in awe!!

John Finnemore does an excellent sketch about the lyrics to Good King Wenceslas that I might just have to go and listen to again on YouTube now you’ve reminded me.

Isn’t this line “lo he abhors not the virgin’s womb”? So he doesn’t abhor wombs. It’s just archaic syntax with the negative following the verb.

Yep, this. Birth wasn't one of pomp and splendor being announced with fanfare on the gates of Buckingham Herod's palace. It was a simple low key birth going largely unnoticed.

This is really interesting and never occurred to me.

It says a lot about how the translator viewed women, doesn’t it?

Paula Gooder Women of the Nativity

Yeah. your lack of understanding of the history of the English language which means all your takes are wonky I'm afraid.

I think the word ‘virgin’ is doing a lot of heavy lifting there.

Isn’t the implication that he abhors not the virgin’s womb but pre-used wombs would be another matter?

Fascinating thread. Merry Christmas!

It means by contrast with the Second Coming which will be exceedingly noisy and brilliantly illuminated by all the glory of Heaven.

The incarnation was a “quiet” arrival no different from the birth of any baby except for the brief appearance of the angels in glory to the shepherds (a foreshadow of His second coming)

"No crying he makes" - he's not your common or garden kid mate..

It’s emphasising His status as actually GOD, as the next line confirms, “begotten, not created.”

This is just silly nonsense. Of course He cried. He was a fully human baby.