Aibu to think wombs, virgin or otherwise, are not abhorent?

[PencilsInSpace]

Just got back from midnight service where we sang o come all ye faithful which praises christ for not abhoring the virgin womb.

I'm an atheist but culturally Christian and have sung those lyrics throughout my childhood without a second thought but they're awful aren't they?

Is a belief in the abhorrence of wombs central to Christianity or is it time to bin that verse, just as that verse from all things bright and beautiful about everyone staying in their place was binned?

The “how silently” bit is about the gift of faith brought about by believing in Christ, not about the process of birth.

YABU for all the reasons given by others, and for taking so long to notice that the language used in hymns and carols is rather strange.

@PencilsInSpace stick to your beliefs next year and don’t go to Church.

Women in some cultures women do but I don't think that's what it means. It means without fanfare.

I watched the carols from Kings last night and was struck by how very male they all were. At least they did use women for the readings. I wanted.after the annunciation a loud female Gospel version of the Magnificat - Trump and Musk hear what God has in mind for you! They had a very peculiar poem after the most highly flavoured gravy carol (ruined by my sisters school) which seemed to suggest that the conception was more normal than it is supposed to have been. Made me squirm.
All the good tidings are for men.
I came to my own interpretion of the abhorring line. The writer is pointing out to his fellows that God does not find wombs abhorrent, unlike his male creatures who are all niminy piminy fussy and ick about them

And 'O little town of Bethlehem' I can't sing enthusiastically now since I found myself thinking a parody. 'Along thy deep and sleepless streets the tanks go crawling by. And red the snipers' laser lights pick out their targets ............' you get the idea.

I like the 'How Silently' line because it's followed by 'So God imparts to human hearts, the blessings of his Heaven'. Which suggests a kind of quiet wonder. Like the stillness of God coming into your heart. I've never thought of it as a giving birth line.

I suppose 'abhor' could be like purity and careful treatment of the virgin's womb as a sacred space. As in, Jesus has been gently 'placed there' by God and has not arrived through thrusting or any other such violent means.

Although the womb is probs pretty abhorred after she has given birth, tbf

I was picking apart the lyrics of Good King Wenceslas yesterday (is he not a bit up himself to know that his footprints are heat-giving?).

I wouldn't expect too much from the sort of idiot who goes on an overnight trek with an underage employee without a proper risk assessment.

It’s not the fact that she’s a virgin or a woman - it’s the fact that she is human and Christ is divine.

@TempestStormAndWine - Apparently wind used to be pronounced to rhyme with find. Then there was a great vowel shift and people pronounced it differently!
www.classicfm.com/discover-music/occasions/christmas/god-rest-ye-merry-gentlemen-lyrics-meaning/

That's exactly what it means IMO. It doesn't mean Mary gave birth in silence!

"He abhors not" doesn't mean wombs are abhorrent either. That isn't suggested at all. As a PP said, it means he didn't avoid coming to Earth as a human baby, birthed by a human woman like all other humans. As a deity he could have arrived in a much more grand mystical fashion, not been born in a stable to poor people!

I'm no fan of hymns and carols, but I think people are interpreting this wrongly. They're written in a style from the past using words not often used in the present day, and you can't interpret them literally or according to modern use of language.

It means God became human in the person of Christ, I.e. he didn't think he was above being in a normal human body (and getting there the same way we all do). The "abhors not" thing just means he didn't think he, a divine being, was above becoming just like the rest of us. So just making the central point of Christian theology - nothing misogynist in it.

I don’t disagree OP, but carols are based on Christianity (in its various forms) and Church doctrine. I’d suggest that if you find the wording of carols offensive, then you should perhaps be questioning the institution in which you are participating!

I do agree that you were spot on about His arrival being humble. An obscure house in a little town without fanfare (except to the most humble of all its inhabitants, the shepherds).

Even when the Magi were looking for Him they went to the palace. Only those who knew the Micah 5:2 prophecy knew where He was.

“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

Good point, well made 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

I think a lot of these lines have some figurative meaning.

The one I'm curious about is the three ships sailing into landlocked Bethlehem. The three wise men? But they didn't get there on Christmas Day.

Exactly. It’s like holding up a big sign saying “I don’t understand linguistic change and refuse to try”

I don't think that carol has anything to do with Bethlehem though

I always interpreted the three ships as being a sort of medieval vision perhaps, on Christmas day he saw them sailing or floating with Christ and Mary inside. That's how I like to think of it.

Though on googling, I learn they were apparently the three ships transporting the remains of the Magi to Cologne cathedral, so there you go.

I didn't know that, thank you!

@AgileGreenSeal do you study the Bible? I try to study parts. The second coming of Christ will be amazing (for those who get to witness it) I am of the belief that everyone will realise what is happening, whether believers or not.

Thank you for this thread OP. It makes for an interesting read.

This.

It means 'real God'. Nothing wrong with it.

Wise men and shepherds. Not the types you'd normally get at the birth of a kind, no!

Yes, 👏🏻 I do.
It’s fascinating to see things starting to come together. I’m particularly focussed on Turkey as that’s a region that features prominently in prophecy.
Check out Joel Richardson’s website for some really worthwhile content. He makes all his books available online there for free.
joelstrumpet.com

„very” as in „true” God - begotten not created. Verily, English is a weird language. 😁