Aibu to think wombs, virgin or otherwise, are not abhorent?

[PencilsInSpace]

Just got back from midnight service where we sang o come all ye faithful which praises christ for not abhoring the virgin womb.

I'm an atheist but culturally Christian and have sung those lyrics throughout my childhood without a second thought but they're awful aren't they?

Is a belief in the abhorrence of wombs central to Christianity or is it time to bin that verse, just as that verse from all things bright and beautiful about everyone staying in their place was binned?

Hymns in general and carols in particular can be both beautiful songs and in various ways daft/funny/anachronistic.
'In the bleak midwinter' has a choice of lovely tunes but little grasp of meteorology in Bethlehem.

Thank goodness for a sensible response.

Glad you are asking; is it only showing that Christ and God Who made Jesus in Mary's womb do not abhor their own female creation nor do they have a reason for it. We are His creation, He loved us enough to be incarnated in a woman, be born and lived as man, die for our sins so we can see Him in Heaven. I suggest you read more about hymns and Christianity because the level of religious comprehension need some upping up

I’m glad for this thread. These lines have always irritated me.

but to be honest, why the obsession with virgins? Are non virgins too repugnant to give birth to the son of god?

I always thought it was saying he didn’t mind the womb. Lo, he abhors not the virgin womb - lo he dislike not the womb. So it was saying he liked the fact he was born of Mary.
seems I have misunderstood it all these years.

It's lovely, isn't it. I particularly like the final verse ("not in that poor lowly stable...")

I don't know about the original Hebrew/Greek, but in Latin "virgo" just means a "maiden" in the sense of a young lady

Abhorring wombs aside, I'd wish they'd modernise the carol repertoire and made it more upbeat as our churches are so dreary. A friend of mine took me to an African church near Lewisham (Church of Life?) and the choir was excellent, the lead soloist was superb with a fabulous voice - it was like being at a Whitney concert and they even let us clap and dance a little. I'm hoping that she'll ask me again, but I think I may have come across as a little too enthusiastic in my dancing. It was a really good night out!

I'm done with abhorring wombs!

No. You have it spot on. It is OP who has misunderstood it.

It’s a clumsy translation from the original Latin. The phrase is about God stepping down to be born into a human body. So the “abhor the virgin’s womb” is about how a deity isn’t supposed to be born of a mere mortal.

Although that last line makes me laugh. 'Where like stars his children crowned, All in white shall wait around' - I always imagine a lot of children wearing crowns and being annoyed that they have to 'wait around!

I have far more sympathy for lyrics written in the past, from a contemporaneous Christian viewpoint, than many modern song lyrics which are misogynistic in the extreme, without any redeeming Christian grace tbh.

@Siberianskies @TempestStormAndWine

YES! I used to think the same - just kids dressed like angels for a school nativity sort of tapping their feet with their arms folded

I love any carol that tells a story. Someone mentioned This Is The Truth Sent From Above - I love that one because it tells the story of the fall. I love the Sans Day carol for the symbolism of the colourful berries. I love A Great And Mighty Wonder for its references to prophecy. We have such a wonderful and beautiful carol tradition - we are so lucky, and I LOVE advent and Christmas in part because of it.

In the Bleak Midwinter always makes me think of the wonderful TS Eliot poem based on the Lancelot Andrews sermon.
'A cold coming they had of it at this time of the year, just the worst time of the year to take a journey, and specially a long journey. The ways deep, the weather sharp, the days short, the sun farthest off, in solstitio brumali, ‘the very dead of winter''

I doubt the words were intended to mean a silent actual childbirth! IMO you have taken them too literally.

Haha I see what you mean about the "waiting around" line!

I've always imagined it in a similar vein to the final verse of Away in a Manger ("Bless all the dear children in thy tender care, and fit us for heaven to live with thee there"). Obviously "children" can be of any age but lyrics like that might have seemed particularly poignant at the time these carols were written, when many (most?) families could be imagining lost children waiting to be reunited with them (like stars, crowned all in white). That may be me viewing the lyrics through too much of a modern lens, though!

@JiminaSlump

I have always hated "New every morning is the love - our wakening and uprising prove". I was tempted to put in inserts to "pruv"

Which, in the days the hymn was written, would have meant the same thing. Young, unmarried, godly women would be assumed to be virgins. Sometimes people like to show off their knowledge of greek when a bit of British social history of the last couple of hundred years would tell you the same thing.

As for the stable thing. It's a traditional layout in Britain too to have a farmhouse attached to an animal house. You can see this still on lots of old farmhouses. People lived in close proximity to animals all over the world. And still do in many places. So quite likely the "stable" was next to the home. However, anyone who's ever been near a cow knows that you wouldn't have one wandering around your living room. Nor would you put a newborn baby into something a cow was eating out of! Regardless of the nature of a Palestinian household layout, the manger bit has always struck me as about as unlikely as a virgin birth

Have you not heard the phrase “nature abhors a vacuum” OP? It doesn’t mean nature is revolted by vacuums. I don’t think nature really has much of a view on vacuums, beyond wanting to fill them.

Non-virgins giving birth is not particularly miraculous, is it?

Just as Jesus walking on water was a miracle, Jesus walking on a carpet wasn’t, so the water episode made it into the Bible and the many times he walked on a carpet were left out.

Unbiblical. Jesus wasn't always obedient. Luke2 v42-48

No, I haven't misunderstood. I know he abhors NOT the virgin womb. My objection is that this is considered noteworthy.

And I understand that language changes and evolves, although I think it's unlikely that a word which originally meant to shudder away from evolved into something benign in the 18th century and then evolved back into a much stronger term today.

Yes, it's noteworthy because foetuses never drop themselves into a virgin's womb. It's the baby in a virgin's womb that's significant, not that the baby got over its abhorrence of wombs in general or that wombs are abhorrent in general.

There were those amone the Church Fathers, Tertullian for one, who held that what lay between a woman's legs was the gateway to hell, definitely abhorrent. But not, this hymn says, to God.
Doesn't the word virgin contain the word vir, for man? Can't find it in any etymology site.

In the bleak midwinter - it's not warm in Gaza.

Doesn’t it mean he was born simply and without fanfare etc?