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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Tired of the performative beggars and alcoholics this time of year

613 replies

Onand · 21/12/2024 07:54

Is anyone else sick and tired of the huge number of ‘homeless’ beggars, alcoholics and addicts that descended on the streets since the Christmas rush started this year?

Manchester is rife with them- this year there is a particularly ropey bunch of alcoholics/ addicts that are obnoxiously ‘sleeping’ or sitting with their bags pointing directly out into the street instead of being against a wall, they’re building ‘dens’ in shop doorways which stink of human faeces and piss, dealers go from spot to spot, dogs forced to sit in uncomfortable situations (often not even their dog as the same one gets passed from beggar to beggar).

It’s a self perpetuating problem because soup kitchens serving buffets set up and cater meals for them whilst they’re generally being a nuisance and making the streets look an absolute shitty mess. Why are they tolerated? People need to stop giving them money as it just encourages them to keep doing it when there are services in place to help them.

Bah humbug I know, but It’s beyond grim.

OP posts:
PandoraSox · 21/12/2024 14:51

MistressoftheDarkSide · 21/12/2024 14:30

While a good number of people posting here grasp that homelessness, addiction, mental health issues and catastrophic life events can bring about a perfect storm for some individuals making them "difficult" to work with and that the overall issue is complex, it saddens me that quite a few want to look at them as almost another species.

Maybe some have been classed as "dysfunctional" their entire lives, and have absorbed a message since childhood that they are "unworthy" which will make them hostile and learn to live in a survival mode which leads to a self perpetuating cycle of defensiveness and disengagement due to inured lack of trust in people in general, and authority in particular. I think it's fair to say care leavers can be in this cohort due to the failures of overstretched services etc and often massive lack of proper oversight and mentoring.

Some will be people whose lives have been torn apart by catastrophic events such as bereavement and job loss and family breakdown and who never get the time and space to recover, so learn unhealthy coping mechanisms.

Some may indeed be part of criminal gangs, but what does it say about society that it produces people who feel safer operating in such high risk and unhealthy circumstances than asking for or accepting "legitimate" help?

I think looking at our developing society, culture and the policies of successive governments play a massive part in all this.

Accessing any kind of support when in crisis is mired in bureaucracy and having dealt recently with our local council regarding homelessness this year, it drove me to distraction although I'm allegedly reasonably intelligent and capable.

The current emphasis on "resilience" and "personal responsibility" is all well and good, but it overlooks the difficulties posed by the ever changing economy, job market, and reliance on being technologically up to speed - it's easier now than ever to find oneself out of the loop and harder than ever to get back on the merry go round.

It is ironic that some posts here have lambasted apparent "marketing strategies" allegedly employed by some of the "homeless" when the entire world is geared up to encouraging sustaining oneself by whatever means possible. It's the very definition of capitalism, and we all buy into it.

Yes, we have growing social problems, but the undertone speaks more to morality for alot of people, hence the phenomenon of the "feckless undeserving poor". Lack of money is posited as a moral failure and how money is spent is less scrutinised at high levels of wealth while at the "poor end" spending is harshly judged. Yet in terms of addiction and the damage that is done, whether it's Bollinger and cocaine consumed in mansions to excess, or White Lightening and smack on the streets, the fallout is the same - it's just that one is visible in the doorways of empty shops in our towns, the other is hidden and excused to a degree simply by dint if financial disparity.

Everyone bleeds. We are all the same under the skin. We can kid ourselves all we like that some fabled moral superiority will never see us "choosing" a lifestyle detrimental to ourselves/ society. But you'd be surprised how the mighty can fall.

The people who are the subject of this thread may have had hopes dreams and aspirations, families and businesses and careers and may have lost them due to the cruel twists of fate. Or they may never have had the opportunity for such grandiose notions. They may be aggressive and unpleasant as we all can be when we've got our back against the wall and can't find the exit.

We can choose how to help if we want to, or not, but please, enough with the de-humanising and othering of people, flesh and blood people, just like us at the fundamental level.

And perhaps direct your ire at the system which can never be perfect but is nowhere near functional these days and ask how that has been at best allowed to happen, or at worst deliberately engineered to create division and divert attention from some of the self serving policies of politicians in lockstep with corporate entities.

And as I've had long posts like this dismissed as word salad in the past, I offer you mayonnaise or the dressing of your choice to aid digestion.

@MistressoftheDarkSide a brilliant post, as many of your posts are. I know you have had your own challenges to face recently. I really hope you find some joy this Christmas and 2025 is a better year for you.Flowers

MistressoftheDarkSide · 21/12/2024 14:57

PandoraSox · 21/12/2024 14:51

@MistressoftheDarkSide a brilliant post, as many of your posts are. I know you have had your own challenges to face recently. I really hope you find some joy this Christmas and 2025 is a better year for you.Flowers

Thank you so much🌻 And likewise, the very best to you and yours ❤️‍🔥

AlertSnail · 21/12/2024 15:35

Verydemure · 21/12/2024 13:42

you make good points @AlertSnail but you’ll also know, addicts don’t just wreck their own lives but often everyone around them. They can be very difficult and challenging people to help and also to like for the reasons @Spangledangle gives in the post directly beneath you..

I think you also have to respect ( and show compassion) to people who don’t want to help, or find their presence annoying. It’s not always through ignorance- often the opposite. Often they have a back story that makes them have little patience for homeless drug addicts. If you’ve been brought up by a character like that, it can be galling to hear people have sympathy for the type of person who made you childhood a chaotic hell!

Yes, I can't argue with any of your points. Addiction implodes families, and having a parent or family member with addiction is a significant trauma in itself. Had the OP expressed this as their main point, I would not have had any issue.

Plastictrees · 21/12/2024 15:49

MistressoftheDarkSide · 21/12/2024 14:30

While a good number of people posting here grasp that homelessness, addiction, mental health issues and catastrophic life events can bring about a perfect storm for some individuals making them "difficult" to work with and that the overall issue is complex, it saddens me that quite a few want to look at them as almost another species.

Maybe some have been classed as "dysfunctional" their entire lives, and have absorbed a message since childhood that they are "unworthy" which will make them hostile and learn to live in a survival mode which leads to a self perpetuating cycle of defensiveness and disengagement due to inured lack of trust in people in general, and authority in particular. I think it's fair to say care leavers can be in this cohort due to the failures of overstretched services etc and often massive lack of proper oversight and mentoring.

Some will be people whose lives have been torn apart by catastrophic events such as bereavement and job loss and family breakdown and who never get the time and space to recover, so learn unhealthy coping mechanisms.

Some may indeed be part of criminal gangs, but what does it say about society that it produces people who feel safer operating in such high risk and unhealthy circumstances than asking for or accepting "legitimate" help?

I think looking at our developing society, culture and the policies of successive governments play a massive part in all this.

Accessing any kind of support when in crisis is mired in bureaucracy and having dealt recently with our local council regarding homelessness this year, it drove me to distraction although I'm allegedly reasonably intelligent and capable.

The current emphasis on "resilience" and "personal responsibility" is all well and good, but it overlooks the difficulties posed by the ever changing economy, job market, and reliance on being technologically up to speed - it's easier now than ever to find oneself out of the loop and harder than ever to get back on the merry go round.

It is ironic that some posts here have lambasted apparent "marketing strategies" allegedly employed by some of the "homeless" when the entire world is geared up to encouraging sustaining oneself by whatever means possible. It's the very definition of capitalism, and we all buy into it.

Yes, we have growing social problems, but the undertone speaks more to morality for alot of people, hence the phenomenon of the "feckless undeserving poor". Lack of money is posited as a moral failure and how money is spent is less scrutinised at high levels of wealth while at the "poor end" spending is harshly judged. Yet in terms of addiction and the damage that is done, whether it's Bollinger and cocaine consumed in mansions to excess, or White Lightening and smack on the streets, the fallout is the same - it's just that one is visible in the doorways of empty shops in our towns, the other is hidden and excused to a degree simply by dint if financial disparity.

Everyone bleeds. We are all the same under the skin. We can kid ourselves all we like that some fabled moral superiority will never see us "choosing" a lifestyle detrimental to ourselves/ society. But you'd be surprised how the mighty can fall.

The people who are the subject of this thread may have had hopes dreams and aspirations, families and businesses and careers and may have lost them due to the cruel twists of fate. Or they may never have had the opportunity for such grandiose notions. They may be aggressive and unpleasant as we all can be when we've got our back against the wall and can't find the exit.

We can choose how to help if we want to, or not, but please, enough with the de-humanising and othering of people, flesh and blood people, just like us at the fundamental level.

And perhaps direct your ire at the system which can never be perfect but is nowhere near functional these days and ask how that has been at best allowed to happen, or at worst deliberately engineered to create division and divert attention from some of the self serving policies of politicians in lockstep with corporate entities.

And as I've had long posts like this dismissed as word salad in the past, I offer you mayonnaise or the dressing of your choice to aid digestion.

👏

coolkatt · 21/12/2024 16:23

Sorry but the poor dogs sitting being passed about just kills me. The people are not homeless where I am, hubby is a homeless housing worker, knows them all, and where they live. They all know my hubby and shout him over. He would never walk by. All drug abusers. None of them homeless in the slightest.

Eyesopenwideawake · 21/12/2024 16:25

Onand · 21/12/2024 07:54

Is anyone else sick and tired of the huge number of ‘homeless’ beggars, alcoholics and addicts that descended on the streets since the Christmas rush started this year?

Manchester is rife with them- this year there is a particularly ropey bunch of alcoholics/ addicts that are obnoxiously ‘sleeping’ or sitting with their bags pointing directly out into the street instead of being against a wall, they’re building ‘dens’ in shop doorways which stink of human faeces and piss, dealers go from spot to spot, dogs forced to sit in uncomfortable situations (often not even their dog as the same one gets passed from beggar to beggar).

It’s a self perpetuating problem because soup kitchens serving buffets set up and cater meals for them whilst they’re generally being a nuisance and making the streets look an absolute shitty mess. Why are they tolerated? People need to stop giving them money as it just encourages them to keep doing it when there are services in place to help them.

Bah humbug I know, but It’s beyond grim.

Just have to say, your OP is one of the most hateful things I've read on MN.

Just vile.

DerekFaker · 21/12/2024 16:41

CheeseTime · 21/12/2024 08:22

Like everything else if there’s money to be made the scammers move in.

I never give money to beggars or Big Issue sellers. Mostly Eastern European women in my town. Why leave your home in Europe to become ‘homeless’ in another country?

What's wrong with Big Issue sellers? Genuine question

Yesitisnotthatitbe · 21/12/2024 17:09

Eyesopenwideawake · 21/12/2024 16:25

Just have to say, your OP is one of the most hateful things I've read on MN.

Just vile.

Another virtue signaller who's totally out of touch with reality. I'm guessing you live in a 'naice' little town in Cheshire or the home counties and have never encountered one of these people

Anothernamechane · 21/12/2024 17:10

Drug addicts and alcoholics bother me a lot less than goady arseholes

DerekFaker · 21/12/2024 17:14

DerekFaker · 21/12/2024 16:41

What's wrong with Big Issue sellers? Genuine question

Sorry I read further and saw people posting about gangs buying them all up. If that's true it's shocking and I would have thought the Big Issue people would check people's credentials! I buy The Big Issue regularly.

Eyesopenwideawake · 21/12/2024 17:14

You see, it's people like @Yesitisnotthatitbe that perpetuate the lies and - quite possibly - hate for those s/he fears. S/he knows absolutely nothing about me yet in her/his own mind she has already concocted a life, a location and a political ethos for me in a matter of minutes. Do you see how completely mad that is?

ThatKhakiMoose · 21/12/2024 17:16

Ponkyandthebrain · 21/12/2024 09:46

This thread is incredibly uniformed and callous. I work in child protection. The lives some of these addicts and alcoholics will have had are really beyond comprehension. I won’t share details here because frankly it’s deeply upsetting. The cruelty they may have suffered depriving them of the normal lives most of us take for granted literally change the way your brain is wired. The odds are heavily stacked of ever living a normal life. If not just a moral obligation of a decent society it’s cheaper to treat addiction than throw people in prison.

Try a little compassion. It is Christmas. If there are people ‘grifting’ it’s a pretty poor grift. It’s easier and more profitable just to commit crimes. I can’t imagine it’s by any means a majority. Give to a reputable charity if unsure.

Hear hear!

SleeplessInWherever · 21/12/2024 17:18

Onand · 21/12/2024 08:21

I knew I should have brought an 🧯 for the flames of hell. It’s not privilege it’s knowing these addicts and alcoholics are preying on the goodwill of the Christmas shoppers whilst out of their minds on god knows what new drug is on the scene (Spice seems to be back judging from the comatose states).

It annoys the hell out of me because there are plenty of families and people working full time and multiple jobs barely surviving who do not resort to this and yet are more deserving of the goodwill.

When you see day after day the same addicts in the same spots you do start to wonder if it’s their choosing.

Maybe you’re seeing the same ones day after day because they’re… homeless every day?

Plastictrees · 21/12/2024 17:19

Eyesopenwideawake · 21/12/2024 17:14

You see, it's people like @Yesitisnotthatitbe that perpetuate the lies and - quite possibly - hate for those s/he fears. S/he knows absolutely nothing about me yet in her/his own mind she has already concocted a life, a location and a political ethos for me in a matter of minutes. Do you see how completely mad that is?

Edited

Yup, I actually laughed out loud at the sheer ignorance of that post.

Smout · 21/12/2024 17:21

In my city there are beggars who are genuinely homeless, people struggling with addictions and scammers. I want to help the homeless and those with addictions but I don’t want to fund addiction or give to scammers. Unfortunately it is often hard to tell the difference. My solution is to donate to two local charities who offer practical help and long term support. I hope I am helping those who need it without wasting my money on scammers

ThatKhakiMoose · 21/12/2024 17:25

Danikm151 · 21/12/2024 09:12

I’ve also used our streetlink service in Brum that allows you to report people sleeping rough and outreach workers will go out to them- offer food, advice and help finding accommodation. Sometimes you get an update and half the time the person has refused the help.

That sounds like an amazing service.

nonkynink · 21/12/2024 17:29

I don't think anyone is excusing scammers who pretend to be homeless or beg to supplement their income. Obviously that's not ok.

But I'm absolutely gobsmacked at the lack of compassion on this thread. Genuine homelessness is a very real problem, how do you tell the difference? People die on the streets all the time and the op is pissed off with soup kitchens for 'encouraging them and making the area look shitty.' Thats vile.

I read somewhere that the majority of us are only ever 3 wage slips away from being on the streets. Those with no support or savings, probably less. You don't know the stories behind these people even the 'addicts and alcoholics'.

Yes nobody deserves to be harassed while they're out shopping but the attitudes of many posters on here is fucking grim and very depressing.

ThatKhakiMoose · 21/12/2024 18:49

AlertSnail · 21/12/2024 11:11

I work with those who are homeless and also those with drug and alcohol issues. If you had even the slightest knowledge of the backstory of some of those who you are denegrating, I would hope you would change your mind. It is not a "choice", it is overwhelmingly a consequence of a series of horrible events in life, usually from a young age. Have some compassion, it is generally an absolutely awful way of life and the stigma from society (such as displayed here) is one reason why it is so hard to get out of. I'm really sickened by the attitude displayed here.

Hard agree.

Longtimelurkerfinallyposts · 21/12/2024 19:19

RadioCountdown · 21/12/2024 10:25

Banks are trying to help people without an address to access their services now. Otherwise it’s a vicious cycle you can’t get out of.

But card readers don't work with personal bank accounts, only with business ones. So how does that work?!

(there are other methods someone could use, eg giving people a QR code to scan that would transfer money into a Paypal or Stipe account - just not card readers!)

TheWayTheLightFalls · 21/12/2024 19:59

Longtimelurkerfinallyposts · 21/12/2024 19:19

But card readers don't work with personal bank accounts, only with business ones. So how does that work?!

(there are other methods someone could use, eg giving people a QR code to scan that would transfer money into a Paypal or Stipe account - just not card readers!)

Card readers absolutely work with personal bank accounts. I have a SumUp machine that I've routinely set to pay into my own account.

Crazykefir · 21/12/2024 20:01

Just WOW

OnlyJoking1 · 21/12/2024 20:47

RadioCountdown · 21/12/2024 10:07

There are some people that beg when they don’t need to BUT there will be a context to that. If you have grown up in a loving, trauma free family, you were supported to reach your potential, you are blessed with good health and you are financially secure, you would not dream of doing that. There will be a context.

Some gangs send people out begging, those people are often vulnerable and exploited.

Some people will be genuinely in need.

Most people that find themselves homeless and desperate have complex, often traumatic histories, mental health problems or are vulnerable in other ways.

We could all end up in the same situation.

Lots of us are protected from that possibility but it’s not beyond the realms of possibility. ‘They’ are no different to you, they have just had a different life history and you could conceivably end up there too. You think not?…(TW trauma)

Imagine there is a big celebration and all your nearest and dearest are there. You step out to take a call and the building explodes in a terrorist attack and you are the only survivor. You have life changing injuries. A brain injury (frontal cortex) that makes decision making harder.

The psychological impact, trauma and physical health issues mean you can no longer work and have to survive on benefits. You meet a kind person who is empathy and understanding as they have been through similar. You are alone in the world and they feel like a good connection in your grief. They give you a pill that they find helps them. They say it will make you feel better. Your grief and head injury mean your decision making is compromised.

You take it. It feels good (having had opiates in hospital during a traumatic event I can tell you - they take all the emotional and physical pain away and replace it with a warm fuzzy feeling). You want more. You need more. You get addicted. You start gambling to try and get the money needed to hold on to that blissfully warm fuzzy feeling that replaces the fear, anxiety, shame, huge gaping loss in the pit of your stomach. You lose it all. Your house, your savings. You have no one left. They were all in the attack. Then this someone offers you a home. Gives you gifts. ‘Looks after’ you. They now have a hold over you…

These people on the streets are people. They are people who often don’t have the benefit of a stable loving background. Have experienced multiple traumas as children and adults. This impacts how our physiology and brain function.

Im not suggesting we give them money. (I will offer to buy them a warm drink or sandwich). I think supporting charities like Shelter, buying the big issue etc is much better.

But to de-humanise them like you have is appalling and shows a massive empathy fail. You should see it and ask ‘How is a civilised society allowing this to happen and what needs to change? How can I play a part in that change?’ Not ‘ew that’s gross how can we hide it away so I don’t have to face it!’

You typed it so much clearer than I thought it, Thank you.
we need more people that think about other people in a compassionate way.
Like you’ve mentioned
There are always reasons why people end up homeless.

100% of the street sleepers have had a childhood in the system and being in various prisons.
It’s not hard to see why that might happen.

I spent my childhood tossed between, children's homes foster homes and a children’s psychiatric assessment Centre at the age of three.
I then went back round the system many more times 20+ moves before I was 6.
I belonged to nobody, I had nobody who I could, trust, nobody to love me people were paid to “care” for me, which at best meant, fed me make sure I had clothes and went to school.
I loved school, guaranteed food and kindness of staff.
I hated school holidays. I’m sure some teachers knew what my life was like as a few of them used to take me to their houses to be part of their family, take me out for meals and other things that nice families did.
I owe so much to those teachers, they were the only families that didn’t abuse me.
A lot of the children I knew from the system ended up homeless as did I once I turned 16, that was usual once nobody was being paid to have you and child benefit stopped.
I spent time sleeping in run down industrial units.
Whilst I did use alcohol way too much, I didn’t get involved in drugs and prostitution the way the other care leavers did, lots of them had pimps and felt they were being looked after for the first time in their lives.
I’ve always been a rebel, I was told I would never get anywhere in life.
So I had to prove a lot of people wrong.
I worked two jobs whilst training for a career I’d always felt I’d be good at.
Got myself a good career, did lots of travelling then decided to buy my own place whilst I was still young free and single, got married had a great marriage and had children.
i never lost sight of where I came from so I’ve been a volunteer with care leavers street sleepers and other vulnerable groups.
It’s not helpful to judge people on how they ended up in a different place, I listen to how and why they got to that place, and support who they are.
I feel some people look down on them and are keen to see that they are very different, like it will ensure it doesn’t happen to them.
Losing your job, relationships breakdowns, bereavement health and mental health breakdowns can and do happen to anyone.

VoodooRajin · 21/12/2024 21:08

You'll be having ghost visitations on Christmas eve with those kind of views

FungusTap · 21/12/2024 21:15

@OnlyJoking1

I am in awe of you.

Your inspirational story is exactly what vulnerable and floundering care leavers, and other unwanted souls, need to hear.

SocksAndTheCity · 21/12/2024 21:28

Yesitisnotthatitbe · 21/12/2024 17:09

Another virtue signaller who's totally out of touch with reality. I'm guessing you live in a 'naice' little town in Cheshire or the home counties and have never encountered one of these people

I agree with @Eyesopenwideawake , and I live in central London. I encounter homeless people, addicts and others who have slipped through the cracks every time I go out; many appear to have serious mental health problems too.

'These people', ffs.

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