AIBU in thinking this could spread rapidly to other schools? Parents have to come into school to change NT DCs if they soil themselves.

[CwmYoy]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/schools-tell-parents-if-your-34349942

It's been a long time coming but I can see it will spread now there are fewer TAs.

As long as SEN needs are taken into account I think it's a good idea.

All of this makes me mourn the loss of surestart centres. The staff were really good at gently intervening to support parents at achieving these milestones.

And it was a great way for some isolated parents (mainly mums) to seek company and advice from other parents.

Oh ffs I didn’t think I needed to add the “apart from where there are clear SN” but there we go 🙄

I had a phone call at work to go and collect son who had had a sudden attack of squits- came on suddenly without warning- he was toilet trained. An accident but they still called me to take him home ( as they should) ( Reception class)

This is what I don't understand. I worked in a nursery for years in the late 00s/early 10s and it was very unusual if a child wasn't potty trained by 3. Obviously there were those with very clear SEN who were still in nappies but I don't ever remember a NT child getting anywhere near school age without being potty trained.

As an EYFS teacher I don’t think this is reasonable at all. There will be lots of children with ALN/ SEN who don’t have a diagnosis or an IDP/ EHCP yet on starting school. In most cases if a child is not toilet trained by the time they start reception there will be some sort of additional/ medical need, even if it’s not known, or it will be a sign that they live in a dysfunctional or disadvantaged household where their needs haven’t been prioritised and parents have neglected to potty train them. This will only stand to make the experience of school, and the ability to attend school, more difficult for a set of already disadvantaged and vulnerable children.

It should also be added that in Wales children typically start school the term after they turn 3 and the article states this will apply to nursery aged children. Lots of typically developing children will not be fully reliably toilet trained on turning 3, again this is going to make school education less accessible for children who are at the later age to be toilet trained. It’s been shown that nursery attendance is beneficial for children but this will just widen the gap for those who aren’t reliably dry and don’t have parents who are willing or able to pick them up. For a child in an abusive or dysfunctional household who has an accident at school I can also imagine that there will be a negative attitude from parents having to go and pick them up and change them, maybe an increase in emotional or physical abuse towards the child and making the child feel shamed for something they cannot help. All this policy does is punish children.

I’m also not sure that this really reduces the need for staff, realistically if a child has had a soiling accident they would still need to be removed out of class, their parents would have to be called and somebody would have to wait with the child until the parents arrived. I don't see how this will be significantly easier for schools to manage than just having somebody take the 5 minutes needed to change the child in the first place. I teach many children with SEN who are not yet toilet trained and me and my TAs all know that changing a nappy as and when needed will be part of the job for that student, similarly some children aren’t reliably dry and cleaning up an accident and helping a child change clothes is expected. That’s EYFS! I’m surprised if there are early years teachers who don’t recognise that this is part of the job and would sooner see a child removed from class and from the learning environment in response to an accident.

It's a fair point to say that a SEN might not be identified yet at 4/5 but if a child isn't reliably potty trained at this age surely starting school should be delayed until they are?

There does need to be a huge increase in Sen schools and of varied abilities as well within Sen.

But you cannot expect or rather should not expect teachers to abandon 29 other children to change a bum. With this being an increasing issue that could be multiple times a day.

As others have also said why are so many children now having toileting issues. The odd wee when newly started reception is expected but not a constant flow of untrained children that are completely untrained. I’m

Unless children have a medical condition or they are a child with additional needs. No child should be in a nappy, I've changed nappies for a child with needs and toilet trained them.

This - if there are special needs and the policy is to school the children in mainstream then specific carers need to be provided for the relevant children.

The policy should be no school until toilet trained.

@Jeezitneverends but all the ones at my school still in nappies DO have SEN from reception up.Everyone else might have the occasional accident , but the only regular nappy users are the kids with SEN.

It's pointless saying you're not talking about kids with SEN, when this is who policies like this target. Even if you have the odd one or two with lazy parents, guess what? They very quickly learn to use the toilet because they are able to and are encouraged to.

@BlueSilverCats

<bangs head against wall>

It's not out of the parents control though. The reality is that the overwhelming majority of children used to be potty trained at 4. Now they aren't. The issue is parenting.

But then where should those children go to school?

The long-standing government policy of inclusion means that it is virtually impossible to get a special school place.

Of the cohort which started school with my son (now yr 3, aged 7/8) there are three still in nappies and one having regular poo accidents. One has agreement for a special school place but can’t find one, one is waiting for tribunal but it’s not looking likely, the third has been denied a special school place at tribunal and the parents are terrified about the idea of her going to mainstream secondary.

The forth child likely has really significant additional needs but the inter generational nature of SEN needs in the family, combined with some complicating factors mean that he has no diagnosis and isn’t on the pathway for diagnosis. He will struggle in mainstream all through his childhood without enough advocacy for support.

Exactly!
Clearly seriously disabled children have always needed personal care- but the others?
Definitely not.
It would have been considered shameful even amongst peers to have made a mess. ( Mainstream schools)
Who is paid to deal with things like this?

Care and Nursing homes / Hospitals are fully geared up with facilities,biohazard bags and sluice rooms.

Mainstream schools aren’t.

Ultimately it will reduce the need for staff, because parents will be so fed up they might actually train their kids.

Well that's unlawful due you the Equality act..

They start nursery at 3 not school, school is reception onwards. Although I do see that in the article it will include nurseries.

Schools have a duty of care to children.

This means if they cut themselves, vomit on themselves or soil themselves they have a duty to assist them out of significantly stained/soiled clothing.

Reception aged children have had issues with this since schools began.

When schools employed nursery nurses in reception there was no issue, but now there is no funding for this sort of help or staffing.

This leaves schools in an impossible position.

They have an obligation to help, but do not have the staffing to do so. There is also the issue of safeguarding a child/maintaining their privacy and dignity.

Some encourage children to change themselves, others ask parents to come in (which they can refuse to do).

I feel so sorry for the schools, their obligations are massive, their resources are tiny. There is no perfect solution.

This is such a difficult area. There is definitely a rise in the number of children coming into school who are still not 100% toilet trained. Often it is too young to definitely determine if there are SENs or not.

From a staffing point of view there is the issue that for Safeguarding reasons it is best practise to have two people present for intimate care situations. Obviously this is a huge staffing issue particularly now that there is such a recruitment problem in education these days. In Year 1 teachers are often on their own so it's not feasible at all then.

Still happened though I'm a 70 s child and remember various kids wetting themselves at school etc.

There's a big difference between a child having an accident once in a blue moon, and reception-age (or older!) children attending school in nappies still.

And alienating families will help how exactly?

we need more support not less. We need to return to more HV, to sure start centres. We need to normalise asking for help.

There is so much truth in the saying it takes a village. But in many areas that village has been decimated by years of cuts and then when things don’t go to plan we are quick to point the finger at the parents. Yes some are poor parents but many are just desperate for support.

Which is exactly the point of the policy 🤦

I worked in schools & this has been an increasing issue for years. Staff just had to get on & deal with it, but honestly dealing with a small child’s dirty nappy/pants used to make staff gag & almost vomit. It can be really vile.

I probably would not be able to leave work to do this.
When my eldest started school he was only allowed to stay until just before lunch time for at least a full term, possibly even longer, because he was a summer born baby and they literally weren't allowed to be at school all day. In theory, that would have meant some less mature children were only at school for 3 hours so less likely to have an accident.