to not understand MNers against neurodiversity

[UkiUki]

Inspired by another thread on here today but it’s an ongoing trend.

I’ve noticed that most, if not all of the time, when a poster suggests that a behaviour may be caused by ND, other posters jump on them and seem enraged that ‘everything is explained away with neurodiversity these days’.

There has been a lot of progress in understanding these conditions which has naturally contributed to an increase in people getting diagnosed. It is especially increasing in females as, per most medical issues, the parameters for diagnoses were created around male behaviour.

As someone currently in the latter part of the long and stressful diagnosis process, my motivation to suggest ND when I recognise certain traits in situations described is that my heart goes out to those who could flourish with a little extra understanding of how their brains work, especially children. I believe I would be a different person now if I’d had the support I needed growing up, instead of just believing I was lazy, clumsy and weird.

I feel a lot of irritation and sometimes outright anger from some posters, and the suggestion that people are using ND as an excuse somehow.

Aibu to not understand where this annoyance comes from?

I am diagnosed ND.

I do see too much “maybe it’s autism” on mumsnet, when there’s no actual evidence to suggest autism, and plenty of evidence to suggest the (usually male partner) is just a bit of a jerk.

It cheapens actually diagnosed people, and allows for some shitty behaviour from adults that really should know better, and tars people with actual ND with the same brush.

I hate to nitpick, but neurodivergence also isn't a diagnosis. You can't be "diagnosed ND". You can be diagnosed with a neurodevelopmental condition. But "neurodivergent" is an identity, not a medical diagnosis.

It's a totally valid way to describe yourself or someone else who doesn't fit the neurological norms, as it were, formally diagnosed or not. It's also a useful shorthand for those of us who have a few different spices in the rack. But it is not, to be clear, something you can be medically diagnosed as/with.

I agree up to a point. Of course we all should be taught to take responsibility for our own actions, consider others, try to contribute to society etc.

I suppose my caveat would be that adults have vastly more autonomy than children.
As an adult I can chose environments and situations I find less overwhelming and that align with my needs.

My options for potential jobs include WFH, flexitime, being self-employed, something focusing on my specialist interest, something very high/low in novelty and change, something low/high in sensory input or movement etc. I can make decisions that allow me to function well.

Children are largely just expected to be in the school system and to fit into that with all of its rigidity.
School is a specific shape that kids have to fit into the thrive and I think in that way school is a very different experience to adult life.

If I don't like my job as an adult I just move jobs. It might time a bit of time but I can make it happen.

Allowing some adaptations and autonomy during school mimics adult life more closely than not.

yes you can have traits of something.
like you can have symptoms of an illness
but if you dont hit the criteria you dont hit the criteria.
so he's not 'a little bit autistic'

Being ND isn't diagnosable: it's an umbrella term.

Maybe that’s why I have always been able to tackle every situation with no worries as an adult, because I was chucked into so many situations as a child that were so uncomfortable to me 😅

Every cloud and all that!

It’s a shorthand so I don’t have to list every ND condition that you can be diagnosed with. The same as when people say ‘mental health problems’ it covers a host of things.

Don't worry most people understand exactly that. Im not sure why i shouldn't say I'm ND as shorthand when I've got at least 3 distinct ND conditions. (All diagnosed, not just labels ... Go me)

Mumsnet on the whole is very intolerant of disabled people but especially those with SEN/ND. The SN children's board has to be hidden away because of the attitude of a large number of people on here towards children with SEN.

But it's not black and white, it's literally a spectrum. You can be a little autistic, or you can be a lot autistic

You wouldn’t get a diagnosis because traits need to significantly impact life. You have a successful career,happy home life and relationships.

No you’re not some superior coping being but somebody who does not have autism.

But it's not black and white, it's literally a spectrum. You can be a little autistic, or you can be a lot autistic

Tell me you don't know how the autistic spectrum works without telling me you don't know how the autistic spectrum works

But it's not black and white, it's literally a spectrum. You can be a little autistic, or you can be a lot autistic

That would be a scale, not a spectrum (literally or otherwise).

This.

It's particularly harmful raising children to believe that ND is a free pass to be a selfish, self-absorbed narcissist. This I'm sadly seeing more and more.

Really how does that manifest then?

She probably thinks you can just ask a child nicely to stop being autistic and not to have any inconvenient needs or behaviours.

I actually see a weird parallel with this thread (and similar ones) and the "MNers are too quick to cry LTB!!" threads.

The arguments seem to be the same - and honestly I think the conclusion (from my side at least) is the same too.

I don't think anyone ever has decided that their child has ADHD/autism/etc or sought an assessment for such things based on comments on a MN thread alone. If comments on MN are one part of an overall picture that caused them to go and seek out an assessment, then that is what they were. And at least IME, sometimes MN is the only place where people will outright come out and say "Have you ever considered...?"

And so no, I don't find it particularly surprising when people suggest ADHD/autism and the poster says "Well yes I have wondered about this but <insert common misconception here> so probably not".

Cards on the table here - I did LTB, 15 years ago in fact, which MN was supportive of and which was absolutely the right decision. I have one child diagnosed with ADHD, that MN never really picked up on, although he is a teenager now - or perhaps I wasn't in that headspace, because I don't remember reading comments like that, despite posting about him a LOT ~10-15 years ago, because I was really struggling. And one child in assessment for both ADHD and autism (MNers picked up on this, though I haven't posted much about him). I am also diagnosed ADHD myself, thanks in part to comments on MN although perhaps thankfully, the one that made me seriously consider it was not on my own thread so I didn't need to endure the back and forth bickering about whether or not it was a reasonable suggestion or whether I was just lazy

And I have also had occasional comments suggesting that my DH may be abusive/manipulative (which he is 100% not ) and that I may be autistic which I am pretty confident I am not. I also remember it being suggested at least once, maybe twice that DS1 (despite the ADHD never really being picked up on!) was PDA, which I was sceptical about at the time and now he is older I'm certain he is not and has never been PDA.

And perhaps controversial - the ex who I left 15 years ago was roundly "diagnosed" by MN as having NPD. I now find this quite unlikely, but it was helpful to me in terms of helping me emotionally detach from the relationship, which was extremely harmful regardless of whether or not my ex has any personality disorders. Since I never told him of my suspicion or anybody else, it caused no harm in the real world.

Point being - I think it's really OK to have these things suggested, whether they turn out to be relevant, or not. I also don't think "Have you ever thought about X" or "This sounds a bit like it could possibly be Y" is diagnosing someone over the internet. It's not like posters are saying "Oh yes OP definitely ADHD, you should start him on caffeine immediately!" I should think anyone suggesting that would be rounded upon and quite rightly.

There is this idea that autism/ADHD/etc are really rare so suggesting it to people online is like hearing hooves and thinking zebra rather than horse. But actually they are very common - about 1-2.5% is thought to be the prevalence of autism and around 3-5% is thought to be the prevalence of ADHD (with some overlap between those). So it is worth thinking about, the same that for example difficulty in learning to read and write is worth considering possible dyslexia.

Yeah sure that's exactly it 🙄

What I'm seeing is a % of parents of ND children who SHOULD be saying 'You find [x] difficult so let's find some strategies for managing this. You're hyperfocusing on the sound of Johnny breathing because you're feeling anxious and overwhelmed. Shall we look at some strategies for managing difficult emotions like anxiety and anger?Shall we look at some ways of redirecting your hyperfocus? Let's take a time out and figure out a plan.'

Instead some are saying 'My teenage child has autism / ADHD! They can't HELP it! How DARE you ask me to work proactively and collaboratively to find strategies to manage this! Of course he's going to hit the boy beside him for breathing too loudly! He can't HELP it! Are you STUPID? Don't you know he's got autism / ADHD? It's not HIS fault everyone in the world is annoying! No, he won't learn the strategies you're teaching him! How DARE you try to teach him to manage his hypersensitivity! It's not up to him to learn anything! It's up to the world to ACCOMMODATE him! Why don't they just HOLD THEIR BREATH to avoid upsetting him! Send everyone else outside!'

Happily they are a minority these parents and children BUT they cause disproportionate harm to everyone around them, especially other ND people. Because bluntly they are so profoundly unpleasant in their interactions that eventually they burn every bridge and end up very alone. They also tar every ND person with the same brush. People hear autism or ADHD and they recoil.

Any professional in these fields will tell you (off record) they are seeing the same. We're not here to placate our ND children. We're here to help them grow and find ways to thrive in the world. And it is relentless and exhausting and a percentage have such significant learning difficulties that learning anything is a challenge but this is not the case for all. Some parents are just too bloody exhausted to do anything other than survival parenting. This is why we need to collectively lobby for better support services.

In telling someone they are neurodiverse, you are telling them they are not neurotypical and therefore something is not “typical” with their brain, or, in other words, that there is something “wrong” with it. This isn’t my view, which is why I’ve used inverted commas around “wrong” for the rest of my posts. I have phrased it like this to highlight that an unrequested diagnosis from a stranger will likely be perceived as a criticism by the recipient, which is one of many reasons I don’t think people should attempt to diagnose at random.

No, I’m not being rude, as I would not comment on anyone in this way as I am not a professional and as I have said many many times on this thread, it is rude and invasive to comment on whether other people are neurodiverse, neurotypical or somewhere in between.

I am not commenting on how able or unable people with autism and/or ADHD are as everyone is completely different!

If you wish to reply to me please quote me so I can actually see it!

I can see both sides of this. I'm late diagnosed ND myself and have ND kids. I feel passionately that it's best for mental health if you are MD to know and understand it. So I do suggest ND on lots of threads. I do find it offensive when people make their comments that it's trendy these days or I get comments like "you don't look/act autistic" or because I have a degree people think I can't possibly be ND as they think it's linked to intelligence etc. Although saying that I also don't approve of self id into ND, if you are in a waiting list that's one thing but if you have no intention of getting diagnosed don't claim the label because there are people who think it's trendy and want to feel special with the special label we can't deny these people exist.

I'm fairly sure my kids dad is ND. He was abusive. ND is no excuse for abuse, it may be a reason they struggle with being abusive/controlling but it's never an excuse. I've fought for my sons diagnosis and to get him support and now some support is in place I find his behaviour is too frequently excused by professionals because he is ND. Yes I want allowances made for him in many areas, and he needs care and education from people who understand him to try to keep him from struggling but he has violent and challenging behaviour when he's struggling and I want to hold a firm boundary that this is unacceptable. One day he will be an adult and if he behaves this way he will be in prison or sectioned. If he continues to be as controlling as he can be now he will be an abusive partner and that's not acceptable. When I see abuse excused on here because the perpetrator sounds ND and women advised to cut them some slack and suffer my blood boils. You cut them some slack for needing routine or for not being able to listen to you with the tv on, you cut them some slack when they don't ask how you are because it doesn't occur to them. You do not cut them some slack when they are controlling your life or shouting or intimidating you. You do not cut them full slack for being a crap parent leaving it all to you, that one is hard and takes working together to come up with plans amend tactics but it's never an excuse to leave everything up to the mother

@SquirrelSoShiny

Well said 👏

The problem is that a lot of posts suggesting ND also suggest that therefore the OP is wrong to take issue with that person's behaviour. It can be - and I've seen it - be presented as a get out of jail free card.But if the behaviour is selfish or unpleasant to be around that doesn't mean everyone has to suck it up.

I would also like to see 'undiagnosed ND' being used very much less often. Gregg Wallace is saying that his horribly inappropriate jokes, rubbing his crotch against female contestants, telling someone he's only just met about his sex life, is due to his undiagnosed autism. Well that makes it all alright then does it?

And the two are linked. ND can be used by people themselves or others to rush to a diagnosis precisely because there is a much greater awareness of diversity. Sometimes the ND can be a genuine reason. But it can also be used as an excuse to be an arsehole. And that's where MN has the problem with armchair diagnostics.

I think this is a little unfair on this poster.
I am diagnosed with autism. You wouldn’t know if you met me. I have a degree and a post grad degree, several other recognised qualifications in various things. I was a teacher for many years. I have a lot of friends and am sociable and chatty. I have had relationships, though choose not to now for other reasons.

I believe I have been this successful at managing my autism because I was treated as any other child growing up. I wasn’t given any special treatment or freedoms passes. I was expected to conform and I learnt to manage in the world with my difficulties. I adopted strategies to help myself and I studied how people interacted and how the world works.
This is why I am so passionate about it because I don’t believe I would be the person I am today if I’d been treated differently from others growing up.
People ask me if I could go back in time and have my Autism recognised as a child, would I. My answer is no, because I don’t think it would have helped me. In fact, I think I could have turned out to be a very different person if that had happened, and I don’t think that person would be half as happy and content as I am today.

I don't eat fries which touched ketchup befire I wanted them to in a way I wanted them to. Well I do now I am adult and don't like wasting food, but begrudgingly.
Am I autistic?

If someone's behaviour impacts another then 'it's OK they are ND' is not an excuse and victims should not have to put up with it

I think this article series is very interesting https://www.madintheuk.com/2024/12/part-1-neurodiversity-what-exactly-does-it-mean/