The older we get, the more conservative we become?

[EddyF]

Just wondering if people believe this. I’m in my thirties and although I have always had real socialist views and I have always voted Labour, I am struggling with some of my current viewpoints which lean more to the conservative way. I think I have lost a bit of societal empathy and seeing things as a ‘dog eat dog world; everyone out for themselves’.

There are so many issues I see locally (London) that I just think not everyone can be saved. The services are stretched; high streets are depressing and people have too many needs and often those needs are not isolated and are multiple. I feel less empathetic and more “can’t you just help yourself”. There doesn’t appear to be a safety net or one that is efficient enough, which to my surprise, has harden me a bit. Maybe it is age😆

I have found that my beliefs are much less entrenched than they were when I was younger. A mixture of realising that most issues are nuanced rather than binary, and developing the confidence to realise that changing my opinions on things is not a a failing, rather it can sometimes be a good thing.

I also have experience growing up under communism. I think people have some really funny ideas about socialism/communism being about idle people being supported by the state. Do you know that it was illegal not to work under communism? You were put in prison and, in many cases, forced into slave labour if you refused to work.

Also - in East Germany at any rate - children being removed from families who tried to escape, and the state telling them the children had died when in fact they’d been adopted.
Yet there are posters on this thread supporting communism.

People on here seem to equate being left wing as being really caring and compassionate and right wing as worshipping money and treating poor people like scum. I don't see it like that at all, I am small c conservative (not Tory) which some works see as right wing and I believe in strong family, putting children first, giving people a good job to do and being tough on crime as this gives the best outcomes. I care about the environment as part of this. I think left wing politics ends up with very selfish people who think they should be allowed to do what they want - soft on crime and drugs, letting them do what they like.

Starmer?

@Menopausalsourpuss, left means something different to Americans. It's kind of a catch-all for liberal values, while right is more like hard-line traditionalism. The division is starker than in Europe; more like our 'far left' and 'far right' I suppose. Both sides in the US are more religious and more capitalist than we are.

There are ideological differences between our left and right, of course, but they're softer and more flexible. The significant question, for us, is how much responsibility we - via the state - have to the society we live in. That leads to a more fundamental question about whether we believe capital is benign enough to take care of it for us (via trickle-down) or we should take charge of it by giving money to a government, which we must trust to use it wisely.

The thing about genderism being 'leftist' is a weird one. That characterisation comes from the USA but our Labour Party seems to have adopted it as such. I don't think this would've happened without the internet bringing us so many unfiltered American concepts. As it goes, however, none of our parties are opposed to it except the far right AND the far left.

Possibly. But also Labour makes little sense now, trying to pull in everyone and their dog under the same umbrella - environmentalists, socialists, all sorts of liberals, lgbtq+, general wokeists and the overall lunatic fringe. It gets harder and harder to relate. If I’m gay it doesn’t mean I necessarily want to drive an electric car (hybrids make much more sense), and if I do - it doesn’t mean I support the tax raids.

What does ‘strong family’ mean? In what way do you ‘put children first’? By providing high-quality, heavily-subsidised universal childcare so that women aren’t disproportionately excluded from these good jobs? Banning private schools and ploughing money into state schools so that all children get the same, high-quality start?

That is a good reply @Garlicwest though I don't agree with all of it. I'm interested as to what you mean by far left and far right particularly regarding genderism. Starmer in particular seems to use far right as anyone who disagrees with him or objects to no limit on immigration. Far left and woke used interchangeably.

Of course not, don't be silly! That's socialism!

Strong family - in this country married families are discriminated against and not valued and we consequently have the worst family breakdown in Europe. All research shows married partners who stay together provide the best outcomes irrespective of family income. So I believe one partner should be supported through tax system to stay at home for first few years as happens in Germany and other countries. The state will never care for children as much as their parents so a poor substitute. This is putting children first. The parent who stayed at home can then be supported to re enter the job market once child at school.
Labour hasn't banned private schools, they've just penalised struggling middle class children whilst allowing children at Eton etc to carry on -VAT won't affect them at all (or the Labour mps who send their children to private schools). I would respect them much more if the just banned all private schools.

Yeah, I feel a bit sorry for Labour at the moment, trying to recover from Corbynism without alienating too many of its members, both generally and within the party. It's never represented all of my values but I share the general feeling that it seems a bit formless just now.

I'd rather have this government than the alternatives we were offered! They've got a massive task to repair the damage done by 14 years of Tory misrule - looking back over history, this has usually been Labour's mandate and they've usually done a good job. It often strikes me that Labour must have an awful public relations team, certainly compared to the Tories.

The UK Communists and Reform are opposed to genderism. Commies because of women's rights; I don't bother reading Reform literature but they say the party has no position on social issues (!)

I think I’m probably the only one in my family moving rightwards with age - I’m glad we have a Labour govt but I didn’t vote for them, I believe that the ‘left’ is moving further away from its economic and class roots and further towards identity politics (in the US mould) much of which - especially trans issues - is deeply individualistic and very capitalist. i abhor the left’s view of itself as holy and righteous and the tribalism, virtue signalling and purity spirals across the political spectrum. I get increasingly frustrated with the way some lefties of my acquaintance seem to think other people/the state should pay for things - its always someone a little bit richer than them who should pay more tax, etc. I would perhaps say I’m a pragmatist of some sort?

I am pretty traditional in lots of small ways such as appreciating a lot of cultural traditions, the church (I have never liked Welby and I do have deep doubts about the CofE), not minding having a monarchy, believing that to some extent, with the best will in the world ‘the poor are always with us’. I wish there were more efficient ways of supporting those who need it, as well as letting some people hit rock bottom because that’s what they need. Of course there is no very practical way of achieving that! I wish life was fairer and wealth not so concentrated but ‘twas ever thus, unfortunately.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2024/sep/29/maternity-pay-is-excessive-says-tory-leadership-hopeful-kemi-badenoch

Boris

I was never Tory.

now I’m voting Kemi next election.

comes to us all.

Yes @anchorage Tories didn't do any if the things I said , they certainly don't support families or women!

No I don't think Boris is very popular as people can see he lied particularly over policies like immigration. I don't think people like Starmers lies either. People would like honesty regardless of party.

Hasn’t come to me. I’d rather eat my own liver than vote for Badenoch.

Don’t be difficult. It comes to most people or did you think center right voters grew under toadstools?

most. Not all. But absolutely most.

Why is it being difficult to disagree with you? And on what do you deduce “most”? Just 40% of over 65s voted Tory in July and 17% Reform - 57% isn’t most.

Being difficult because I said it happens to all of us when I clearly meant most.

and 57% is a huge majority for any government in recent memory.

it’s coming to you…..

It isn’t. I’m 71 and far too old to change.

57% of over 65s voted for right wing parties. 34% of 50-64s, and 25% of 24-49s. No government in my lifetime has ever had a 57% majority.

I don't think it's mainly that people become cynical, although that is true of some.

It's that they see that while you can tweak people's behaviours, you can't change the basic drives and physical elements that drive human nature, both good and bad. People as a whole will always want to protect their kids, they want material goods, they want affection or sexual attention. There will always be some people who have poor impulse control, or are selfish, too.

And related to that, when you decide as a society to change the way you manage behaviour, there are almost always trade offs.

What this means is that for almost any policy direction you have to weigh a sometimes complex set of pros and cons in terms of long term effects on how people think and act, as well as effects that can reach far into other areas of social behaviour.

I think one of the things that has become confusing is that the right and left have both to some extent been taken over by liberals. This has been the case for decades.

On the right, it's mainly these free market people, which was nothing to do with transitional conservatism. People forget how Thatcher was hated by traditionalists. There's more tendency for the right to remain socially conservative, but it's pretty uneven.

The left has retained some elements of state socialism, but has abandoned a lot of traditional left wing economic thinking and policy ideas (the embrace of free trade is a good example, and more recently being very pro big pharma etc.) But they are also chasing liberalism on social policy now, not leftism.

The right liberals IMO are not skeptical enough of the "market" while the left liberals are not skeptical enough of the state. With the state and the market increasingly becoming entertwined.

in addition, I think that in most western countries, governments have barely any room to budge on economic policy It's all been stitched up by global forces, big banks, international business. None of them are really free to do anything seriously differernt, whatever their ideology, they can't opt out of the global marketplace.

I am not so sure of this, younger people now are polling more conservative than older ones in a lot of places.