The older we get, the more conservative we become?

[EddyF]

Just wondering if people believe this. I’m in my thirties and although I have always had real socialist views and I have always voted Labour, I am struggling with some of my current viewpoints which lean more to the conservative way. I think I have lost a bit of societal empathy and seeing things as a ‘dog eat dog world; everyone out for themselves’.

There are so many issues I see locally (London) that I just think not everyone can be saved. The services are stretched; high streets are depressing and people have too many needs and often those needs are not isolated and are multiple. I feel less empathetic and more “can’t you just help yourself”. There doesn’t appear to be a safety net or one that is efficient enough, which to my surprise, has harden me a bit. Maybe it is age😆

That’s quite compelling and makes intuitive sense – though is it not the case that people are generally having fewer children, rather than not having kids at all? I seem to recall reading that the % who are childless doesn’t actually change that much. Maybe delaying kids reaches effectively the same result.

I genuinely cannot fathom this. What do you have in mind? Unless it’s solely economic, and you’re still thinking about forty years ago, how on earth can you say the Overton window has shifted right? It’s been moving left, and narrowing, my entire adult life. Only in the last few months are we starting to see the beginnings of a change.

Last time I looked at ONS UK figures - there was a slight increase in % of women not having any children at 45 - however there was a bigger % decrease in size of family - 2 kids seeing uptick and larger numbers declines.

Not clear how true that is for all countries - but UK it was above. Some pundits like Birth gap guy seem to focus on % not having any kids and insist family sizes have remained stable - but don't know what countries or data they were focused on.

It gets slightly less clear when people use 30 year old women with no kids which has much higher % than ever before not having kids but there's debate whether that parents age tracking every upwards and they will have fewer later or if they'll end up adding to % who never had kids.

However parental age is on the march upwards. So where as my parents where in the 20s when they had us - we were nearer 30 - and peers nearer 40 - so while parenthood still happens and may be causing conservative outlook it happening later and later so fewer voting years having a conservative outlook.

Having said that younger people are on the decline in populations as well as populations ages - so if they become conservative later with later parenthood does it really impact and why are young men getting more right wing but women aren't. Political parties and pundits look at general trends and speculate why but think if we are going though a change/major shift may be impossible to really understand till we are other side.

@EasternStandard

The Government debt crisis we are seeing across all Western democracies reminds me of the quote by Alexander Tytler in the late 1700s:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy"

I don’t know what left wing means anymore.

really

I’m in my fifties and have always considered myself left wing. But now I’ve not idea what that means or if I meet that criteria, as it’s defined in 2024 Britain.

I do feel a drive to “conserve” whether that’s our rights or our environment or our societies. But I always thought the “urge to conserve” lay at the heart of conservatism? That’s what it’s named for after all.

I've always been left wing and was an activist until my 40's (I'm now 67) but, I must admit, I'm getting to the stage of being sickened by (almost) the whole human race. I'm more concerned now with the planet and other species. The destruction and cruelty we wreak on an industrial scale makes me weep.

I don’t know what left wing means anymore

I just watched an interviewed with someone I didn't know but they were apparently a prominent Jeremy Corbyn supporter who had in past written for a Marxist paper and were well know for doing so.

They were complaining about situation they had a Guardian reporter had labeled him right wing and USA newspapers in rehash of story labelled him far right. It was because sections of the left weren't pro EU having their own issues with it but apparently that didn't compute so not liking EU meant they must be right or far right.

I don't know if it misinformation or just idea that you have to think exactly a like on all issue or you must be the other side - but increasing I'm not sure left and right mean as much as they once did.

Ah, those right wing Marxists failing to meet the purity hoops of the Guardian left 🤣

That's interesting. I know lots of left wing people who voted leave because they didn't like the EU, they thought it was authoritarian, undemocratic and neoliberal.

I believe it was part of Labour's manifesto in the 80s to come out of the EU.

AuxArmesCitoyens · Today 07:34
Of course,. Both sides have committed terrible atrocities. Neoliberal capitalism is a massive killer and is on line to bring the human race to an end in a few decades.

So fascism and communism have been tried and haven’t worked and neither has capitalism.
Do you think there is a method of government that could work?

What method of government would you want to have?

I recall seeing that often quoted not a household budget line on here but really there is a limit to government debt

It has a negative impact as France and others are seeing now and we have made riskier here by upping ours at the last budget

Plus all that debt servicing which is greater than the defence budget

Absolute nonsense. Sorry, you are just wrong.

Tongue in cheek but always fun to imagine. How about a benevolent dictatorship? Like Singapore, Bhutan, Jordan… long term stability and planning, everyone knows where they stand. Predictability!

King Charles might not be a bad choice? We put up with a hierarchical society and wealth equality in return for some civil liberties, and a leader who can make effective decisions on behalf of the masses, without pesky bureaucratic and political delays.

Ah thanks, I see your point now. It was that you were right and I was wrong. How silly of me not to have got it before.

I am singaporean. I am pregnant now and praying it's a girl because if I have a boy, I have to send him for military service for 2 years (if I claim singapore citizenship for him) even if he grows up in London, and he would be trained for combat and on the front line of any war even as an only child (no opt outs unlike in israel). Would also have to apply for an exit permit every year from age 13 (basically say he is attending school in London) and post bail of 75k sgd (around 40k gbp) in bankers guarantee from age 16 (as he is overseas) In any other country, this would be seen as excessive. In singapore the authorities know best. And the stereotype is overseas singaporeans are generally better off and need to accept their responsibilities.

There are a million examples of such things in singapore. It is a richer country than uk and even London, 85% of the population live in government housing, maybe 100 homeless people, good healthcare (but an insurance system so not everything is covered even if it is heavily subsidized for singaporeans; however you will still probably need to pay a few thousand or so out of pocket at some point), good public transport. But the devil is in the details. There is subsidized government flats (for couples or singles above 35) that are cheaper than private sector alternatives and if you buy the new builds earmarked for first time buyers it is easier than buying in London. But for people like me who are married to foreigners, my husband can't be on the property deed unless he gets permanent residency (criteria is opaque and not published- you have to show commitment to singapore I.e. volunteering). We also have to sell our London property and wait 15 months before attempting to buy. Needless to say we are staying in London.. private condos in singapore are 60% more expensive.

These are just 2 policies that I have identified as unfair and I have not lived in singapore since I was 21. I am sure if I lived there I would come up with a longer list. My parents are very comfortable and own a large private home so they are less affected by most policy changes though during the pandemic, my dad who is a commercial landlord basically wasn't allowed to collect rent (government policy) from one of his tenants for 2 years due to the constant lock downs (he wasn't reimbursed either) . My sister is a doctor who regularly works 14 hour shifts for a week in a row, no such thing as doctors union there. Good quality healthcare comes at a price.

It is good to challenge our own views and ideologies over time, reductive not to.

It is not as simple as people being right and left on every issue. Most people vote based on economic and fiscal aspirations to achieve broadly the same thing. An improvement in their living standards and that of others. People on the rich believe that is achieved through wealth creation and people on the left through wealth redistribution.They also have different views on how to prevent wealth inequality and absolute poverty.

People also consider social issues when they vote. They might be fiscally conservative but socially progressive. Today we see not just the split between conservative and progressive but also regressive tendencies. These are not age bound. Immigration is one area where population views are becoming more and more regressive.

As a women I’m generally progressive in my thinking but conservative when it comes to gender identity.

I also have to say that my voting in the past decade or so has been led by my views on who is competent rather than ideology. There hasn’t been a great choice at most elections and absolutely zero choice at one.

The other factor here is lived experience. Older people don’t just know rely on theory. They live through the failure of economics and social policy. That’s why there is still a strong voting bias for low inflation, low taxes and high employment in older generations.

The other factor here is lived experience. Older people don’t just know rely on theory.

Older people tend to lack the experience of what it's like to grow up in a very different society for a young person with their life ahead of them. And in many cases are completely uninterested in learning about that experience, because they don't take young people seriously.