My town has really changed

[CatbellsOnTheSeashore]

In a confusing and not very pleasant way.

It was gradually changing for the worse before covid, but the pandemic seemed to accelerate it, and I am wondering if anyone else has noticed anything like this.

It became more insular whilst more populated, the population increased quite a bit over the past 5 yrs. More and more dereliction, low council maintenance and an influx of troubled people housed around the town centre, which is now a no-go zone. Areas surrounding have steadily grown worse also, as it seems to be spilling out.

What does feel really different is that there are now lots of groups of men, hanging around drinking or sat on pavements together (not begging). Drugs took over the local nature paths and canal walks so now there are large groups of people out of their heads lying on old sofas at the locks, it's really grim. Women who used to cycle and run in these areas have more or less moved elsewhere or stopped.

More and more standard sized houses in low to middle income areas are becoming HMO's, yet with poor refuse organisation and not enough parking. I'm not exaggerating when I say there are literally trails of dog shit in the streets in many areas, too, which pretty much hangs in the air and the place stinks. That, and skunk.

We live in a decent part of town but it is coming closer, and I only have that perk due to inheriting my parents bungalow. More and more people are moving out.

On a walk to Sainsbury's yesterday two guys were holding onto a sign pole hovering over a bin. As I passed by one of them vomited into the bin and then spat/gobbed an inch from my feet - he didn't notice me particularly, but it was quite sudden or I'd have given them a wide berth.
This isn't unusual now.

I know people usually blame the cost of living and covid, etc, but this was definitely on the rise before. There is far more noise pollution as more buildings go up, usually industrial, and the roads are a nightmare. Infrastructure for actual people is decreasing.
That said, I don't think most of these people were thriving before, so it isn't a sudden change. It is as if a new kind of culture is growing, that doesn't care a damn about anything. Everything is vandalised or shat on. More and more windows are broken in properties close to the town centre, and I doubt most of these people were thriving before the pandemic hit.

Is this bad luck or is anything like it happening elsewhere?
We are definitely looking to move away.

Othering
Very rarely right..... particularly generalisation.
Every group had bad'uns but to blame a whole group is wrong. I'll make an exception for violent criminals though... wherever they were born.

Immigration probably comes up in posts so often as a problem because it's solution is so obvious. Sorting drug takers, parents not bringing up children well, homelessness etc etc is multifaceted and much harder to solve - especially in a country that is skint.

But is the state of the country now Bern caused by not being in the EU? It doesn’t seem likely.

Some of the £5.6 Billion (and rising) we spend on immigration each year though would certainly help address some of the other issues. Imagine being able to put that £8m that we spend each day housing “asylum seekers” into schools. Those accusation co st ts alone would give each and every school in the UK just under £100,000 year extra- imagine what a school could do with an. Extra £100,000 per year

Unfortunately when it comes to drug abuse, alcohol abuse you've got to want to quit yes money for service's would help but you've got to want to change.

I think the reduction in opportunities for people who are not academically inclined is a huge issue.

Not everyone is a whizz with IT. So many jobs that used to be relatively simple require to use tech now and are more complicated and we don't seem to encourage trades any more.

If you are not academic but are a grafter there's nothing for you. When i was a kid in the 80s a lot of jobs were quite routine. You learned how do to it in your 20s then you basically kept on doing it and got quick and experienced at it and everyone was happy. Now you have to be "improving processes" all the time. Even a basic admin job will often require you to become skilled on some bit of software or system and you will be pushed to do more and more and more, create a tool to automate it, learn how to make an app, upgrade the app etc. This is mentally much harder than jobs used to be and we get data overload, its really stressful. Add in that the length of the working day seems to constantly be creeping up. Lots of people finished at 4 or 4.30 when i was a child and it was normal to just work hours, now if you get up to go at 5.30pm everyone is looking askance at you.

If you are a young person now who is not too academic, you are faced with porn everywhere & toxic masculinity.the only jobs for low skilled people are badly paid care work jobs, a job in a warehouse won't pay you to get your own home & raise a family. You've lost hope, you're disenchanted

I smell weed everywhere and it isn't pleasant and turning some into paranoid individuals who can't function without it.
I agree with perdita that the work place is so toxic now and tech isn't always easy to get your head around. It has made jobs much harder to keep and source and money to have. It's all extra expenses that puts pressure on people too as the work place expect you to have a phone to do a lot of things ( to do with work )
Pushing everything back onto the individual to sort out.

I was really on the legalizing weed train and I now regret ever supporting it. Awful smell everywhere and customer service employees stink of
it snd are very clearly high on the job.

Best estimates are that Brexit costs 4-5% of GDP. Every year. There’s a lot of reports out there but I’m sure you can use Google. That’s a massive hit and will certainly push the UK towards second-tier status over the long term, with an ever-increasing divide between the rich and everyone else.

Personal opinion- I also think the Brexit campaign actually caused a lot of cynicism- the lies which went unchallenged, the promises which were broken- and that’s incredibly damaging to democracy and to people’s spirit. It reinforces the idea that there’s no point in hoping things will improve. I also think it shows very starkly the failure of the media to offer critical analysis of statements made by people with vested interests. Most of us don’t have time or inclination to do the research and the critical thinking, so we need the media to do it and put it out there. With social media, and with the need for immediate gratification and rolling news coverage, Bob down the pub is as much of a commentator with as much of an audience as Sophy Ridge or Emily Maitlis, and uninformed opinions and actually wrong information is circulated as if it were carefully considered facts and analysis.

Yes, I think Brexit probably did quite a bit of damage on the intellectual front. The rhetoric repeated by the Remainers summed up a lot of what is wrong with society these days, it’s become almost unconscious because it is so embedded. You’ve written an extremely prejudiced post and probably don’t even realise it. The narrative of “if you think like me, you’re clever, kind and can apply critical thinking, if you don’t think like me you’re thick, prejudiced and haven’t done any research”

it’s pathetic and laughable. It’s a model we see repeated through all manner of debates. It’s black and white thinking, the antithesis to intelligent thought.

“Bob down the pub” might have qualifications in EU law, he might understand the conflicts which will only increase that arise out of the legal systems that operate across much of continental Europe and that which operates in the UK. He might understand that the culture of the island is different to the culture of a largely single landmassed group of countries whose borders have constantly shifted. He might have concerns over the amount of times the UK is opting out of areas of EU activity and see potential issues in the future as to how much sway and involvement we will have with one foot in and one foot out. He might think in times of trouble the UK might have very different interests to mainland Europe. There might be many things Bob has considered in order to reach is conclusion because Bob is bright, he doesn’t copy and paste soundbites. Bob lives in “not London” he realises the EU is a net drain on the economy. Bob is playing the long game.

I was looking at the arguments from both sides because I was open to both at the time, but I saw nothing from the Leave camp which was carefully considered and mostly was unsubstantiated claims about how great things would be without the shackles of the EU. Can you point me to a contemporary Leave argument which was cogent and reasoned? Or even a current argument- although everything I see still seems to be about minimising damage done and blaming the Remain camp for making points that have subsequently been proven correct. Maybe I have missed the reasoned and evidenced arguments that you’ve seen?

I realise Bob might have all those qualifications, but equally he might just like Farage and Johnson because he’s seen them drinking pints like ordinary folk. My point is that we don’t know, and the requirement to have evidence to support an argument seems to have been removed in favour of the school of “oh but in this imaginary scenario everything I say is justified”.

Bob is a bright person, so he does his own research - the reasons Bob voted for Brexit are set out in the previous post. In his opinion these form a solid basis to vote Leave. He gets frustrated that Remainers continually ignore arguments he clearly sets out - desperate to paint him as stupid or bigoted. He concluded most Remainers either can’t read or understand little about the EU or legal systems and continues to sip his pint of locally brewed ale - smiling to himself with a slight shake of his head. Bob is wise. Be more like Bob.

I'm guessing 'Bob down the pub' doesn't have qualifications in EU law though

Ok, but then why is it invalid to point out the remain arguments, such as- the clash with the Good Friday Agreement, the loss of opportunities in science and culture, the loss of trade, the loss of opportunity to live and work abroad, the increased faff of travelling to EU countries, the loss of influence internationally? Bob thinks his arguments outweigh those, but I disagree, and given the costs outlined in numerous reports, the loss of GDP, I would say I’m right that they outweigh his. Why is my position patronising and painting him as bigoted but his (or yours) is not?
you accused me of being prejudiced but the tone of your posts is far more unpleasant and offensive than mine.

Well he has a law degree - about 1/9 of that was in EU public law. His job has involved dealing with the impact of EU law in his area. This has involved several visits to counsel.

Bob, never said anything about different perspectives being invalid. At this stage Bob has given up hopes of any Aristotelian principles being applied to debate and sighs with an air of resignation at the inevitable descendant into ad hominemism. He sips the last of his pint, places his flat cap on head. his whippets Dante and Virgil rise from their spot next to the fire and leave the warm safety of the pub. Over the door hangs a sign “abandon all hope ye who exit here” and they head out into the first circle of hell that is the university with its false prophets and somewhat unwise philosophers. He thinks hell will freeze over before we can ascend into any kind of decent civilisation again - but we will leave that for another day.

@Dorisbonson

The government spends on average 17k per person in the UK.

If an immigrant is earning 30k then they pay 5k national insurance and income tax into the system. 72% of work related Visas were issued for low paid jobs and 54% of those were for jobs earning less than half the average salary. Essentially those people need subsidising through the taxation system.

Woah. Had never thought of that! Given that migrants are filling much needed jobs in social care - a field that is undervalued and underpaid - surely there's a way of re-jigging the money so the net outcome is the same but the carer is getting paid more? So the job is more attractive/manageable for someone already living here? Low pay that doesn't reflect the stress and antisocial hours is why carers leave the profession (I say this as a former carer who's colleagues struggled/often left for the same reasons!)

@SallyWD

This not integrating thing is often a myth in my opinion. Obviously it takes a while, years, to integrate and those living in severe poverty will find it much more difficult to fully become part of society. However, in general I see no evidence of people not wanting to integrate.

There are, unfortunately, pockets of people who refuse to integrate. Recently I found out a collegue was brought here from Pakistan aged 13 to be the wife of an older man. The shocking thing is, the man grew up in the UK.

There's currently a thread running about a teacher that had to go into hiding after using images in an RE lesson about blasphemy - the followers of just one of those religions issued death threats to him (lesson plan had been taught before/was standard, wasn't written by that individual teacher).

We have girls and women covered from head to toe with only their eyes showing. Not showing your face is hardly helping to integrate. Although obviously the problem here is the MEN who perpetuate this extreme sexism (ie. I wouldn't want to ban the coverings as it would just marginalise the women further). But these men are choosing not to integrate and to prevent their wives and daughters from doing so, not to mention the horrendous values they are teaching their sons.

We have so many barbers and vape shops, the suggestion seems to be that at least some are fronts for illegal activity ... they are run by migrants.

We also have an issue in the area I live in - an area that has been multicultural for years (and shout out to the mosques and churches who work together to plug some of the gaps in services left by austerity) but there is one cultural group in particular who cause so many issues with antisocial behaviour and excessive noise ... I've migrant neighbours who've expressed their confusion at the situation, people who's default position is neighbourliness and being welcoming, who cannot understand why some people choose to be so unpleasant and make themselves so unwelcome.

So whilst the majority may try to integrate, there is a distinct minority who do not, and who cause a lot of problems.

DD lives in Derby. Noted that the Aga shop is shutting after 30 years. She reads this as Derby no longer having a population that can afford an Aga. She's sad. She likes Derby and lives in a conservation area above a large park. It seems to be a symptom of the lowering of wealth. It's a function of neo-liberal capitalism, which hoards wealth in the hands of an elite and leaves the rest of us to struggle, whilst offering us meaningless choices. Globalization has fed into it as well.
Not going away any time soon.

I think vape shops and barbers are now quite often money laundering operations - just a feeling, no-one actually knows this.

The problem is that while immigration laws allow people in to fill low-paid UK jobs - as employers want - then things will not change. The economy has to gear up to educating people and getting wages back up, very difficult when e.g. France is in major financial trouble.

I'm not too sure what this is exactly but the last time I walked through the centre of Wigan, I passed through a small industrial complex that sits close by the main train station, slightly hidden from people if they don't deliberately go there.

Some old office units (flat roof, single glazing) are being used as housing for immigrants who work on the complex. Several young men came out wearing rucksacks and headed into small factories across the road, etc. It saddens me to see people living in boxes like this, with no access to anything good in the environment. I feel like we are treating people like rats. How is anyone supposed to work their way up, meet a partner or start a family in such conditions?

I am in Kendal, Cumbria for work this week, which isn't half as chipper as it once was, either. Smaller population by far, but a lot of tired, harassed looking residents. Most people seem chipped away at by the awful transport system. You then head towards M&S and Booths and suddenly it feels different. Visitors and more affluent people appear, the mood is lifted immediately.

I just looked at a map of UK deprivation and the string of areas combining the lower north west to east, plus Birmingham are in red.

I do see that entitled attitude everywhere though: in more affluent places there are speeding, loud cars, men swaggering around with their 'butch' dogs and groups of men/boys just aimlessly hovering about. It's a lot louder and messier in rougher areas but I do think it's spreading. And these are all native white men.

Also, when searching MN for similar topics, the most common reply is that everyone lives in a chocolate box, very safe area. I doubt that's a reliable metric, lol!

My street isn't chocolate box or particularly deprived. I've noticed a big difference since I moved in 35+ yrs ago.

Now when I wait for prescriptions, there's often a queue of men (occasionally women) waiting for their methadone. I see toothless folk staggering around the streets during the day.

During lockdown, a couple were running about ducking down below hedges in a vain attempt not to be seen, heading up the hill towards the flats where (presumably) they were going to meet their dealer.

I was so sorry for pharmacy staff during lockdown. For the first time in my life, police were patrolling round the premises: they'd had one irate man sweeping all the goods off the shelves because he wasn't being served quickly enough. Another bloke had kicked in the pharmacy window. Yes, the culprits were locals.

I love Kendal - beautiful - and at this time of year there should be a great view from the castle across all the mountains/lakes if the weather’s clear