My town has really changed

[CatbellsOnTheSeashore]

In a confusing and not very pleasant way.

It was gradually changing for the worse before covid, but the pandemic seemed to accelerate it, and I am wondering if anyone else has noticed anything like this.

It became more insular whilst more populated, the population increased quite a bit over the past 5 yrs. More and more dereliction, low council maintenance and an influx of troubled people housed around the town centre, which is now a no-go zone. Areas surrounding have steadily grown worse also, as it seems to be spilling out.

What does feel really different is that there are now lots of groups of men, hanging around drinking or sat on pavements together (not begging). Drugs took over the local nature paths and canal walks so now there are large groups of people out of their heads lying on old sofas at the locks, it's really grim. Women who used to cycle and run in these areas have more or less moved elsewhere or stopped.

More and more standard sized houses in low to middle income areas are becoming HMO's, yet with poor refuse organisation and not enough parking. I'm not exaggerating when I say there are literally trails of dog shit in the streets in many areas, too, which pretty much hangs in the air and the place stinks. That, and skunk.

We live in a decent part of town but it is coming closer, and I only have that perk due to inheriting my parents bungalow. More and more people are moving out.

On a walk to Sainsbury's yesterday two guys were holding onto a sign pole hovering over a bin. As I passed by one of them vomited into the bin and then spat/gobbed an inch from my feet - he didn't notice me particularly, but it was quite sudden or I'd have given them a wide berth.
This isn't unusual now.

I know people usually blame the cost of living and covid, etc, but this was definitely on the rise before. There is far more noise pollution as more buildings go up, usually industrial, and the roads are a nightmare. Infrastructure for actual people is decreasing.
That said, I don't think most of these people were thriving before, so it isn't a sudden change. It is as if a new kind of culture is growing, that doesn't care a damn about anything. Everything is vandalised or shat on. More and more windows are broken in properties close to the town centre, and I doubt most of these people were thriving before the pandemic hit.

Is this bad luck or is anything like it happening elsewhere?
We are definitely looking to move away.

You've lived a sheltered existence then. If a family member is a drug addict or has severe psychological issues, they may be cared about but other family members have to be protected from them.

Zone 4 (JUST) in South East London

Moved here in 1997.

Nice shop selection locally, clean enough pavements, orderly queues at the bus stop,. All gone to absolute Shit now.
They put in benches for people to sit on whilst waiting for the bus or just on their way home or whatever. Can't get near them due to the drinkers that gather.

Shops ? Not much variety now but we have THREE chicken shops, amongst other food outlets.

Dumping rubbish on street corners is now commonplace.

Its a shit hole, quite frankly

In reality it’s a mixture of both factors when these areas decline.

Here’s a video shot in Skelmersdale. You can see there’s been an influx of recent immigrants but also UK born white Brits acting like gangsters:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=NrhqFm9vw1Q

Back in the 1990s there’d be teenagers from the local council estate hanging around smoking outside the one shop in my parents’ village (where I grew up) in the evening.

Thirty years later the village has doubled in size, and apparently some undesirables have been moved in by the council.

Yet curiously enough there’s never anybody hanging around outside the shop in the evening!

I’m not saying this has any wider meaning, but I’ve noticed it.

If you’ve been reading through the thread you will have seen the discussion how the influence of unintegrated immigration and multiculturalism affects the cohesiveness of society which can impact on everyone (inc young white men from Wigan). We are talking broadly about why society is breaking down and immigration without integration is increasingly seen as one of the driving forces in this. Hope that helps join the dots for you.

We're talking about the specifics of said addict being on the street and their family paying for a mobile phone contract so they can ensure that person is safe.

I'm saying this happening is unlikely.

You can thank the Tory government for the decline

@LifeEdit I tend to hope that some people will be careful before launching personal comments but perhaps that's too much to ask

you commented about MistressoftheDarkSide who can, of course, speak for herself

however, I feel rather protective as she has had a terrible time of things and dealt with it bravely. There is indeed a complex situation with elderly family and her support network is also here.

I like England very much but everyone is entitled to their view and leaving is not necessarily easy. The level of debate should be better than this surely. It is mostly a good discussion, albeit a sad one.

Is that somewhere like Downham, Grove Park, Sydenham?

Are you in London?
I doubt you are in Wigan.

Obviously. Wigan is not particularly 'diverse' and does not have a large Muslim population.

This was a deliberate policy of the last government. Refused to process asylum claims so that people were stuck permanently in hotels, unable to work.

Reform Party policy is much the same and will have much the same results. They don't believe in climate change so don't expect to see any investments which might improve conditions in those countries affected

Current government is trying to clear the backlog, resulting in a greater number of deportations and those people who do have a legal right to asylum will be able to start working and contributing.

If we really wanted to improve the country's economy and society the best things we could do are a) rejoin the Single Market and Customs Union b) invest in those things which would bring long-term benefits - social housing, early years, transport.....

Leeds

I am not privy to a poster's personal situation no more than you are to mine.
The poster you mentioned is quite capable of coming along to diss her own country, piss on its history and generallyy say how ashamed she is of it.

I asked her why then she would have so little self respect to stay in somewhere that she feels is such a shithole and you say it is because her support network is here and she has elderly family.

That may, or may not be the case but even if it is-so what? We see people crossing the world in a boat with no more than the clothes on their back. They do that, in many cases, because they cannot abide the land of their birth and she could do the same if she feels so strongly that she lives in the shithole of the world. It may not be "necessarily easy" but it is perfectly possible.

However, I'm quite sure that this country is, one way or another-directly or indirectly- helping her in her "complex situation".

If she doesn't need the help directly or indirectly than she must have plenty of independent means and able to bugger off..

If she hasn't the country must be supporting her in some way and she must be taking it. Something she should think about before she comes along and pours vitriol on the land, making it out to be one of the worst places in the world.

Nowhere is perfect and criticism is healthy but this country does not deserve the contempt she chose to rise up and pour upon it and then not expect her silly post to be remarked upon.

Tis an old adage but true-if you can't take it, don't dish it out. If she continues to insult the country with her contempt, then I am happy to pick her up on it.

Actually, this is a problem across much of Europe - it’s likely Labour will make things worse

@Feelingathomenow No need to be so patronising, I'm well aware that by page 28 of a thread that was started about white people people are saying barely veiled things about immigration, thank you very much. Interesting how that can happen, isn't it? Probably nothing to worry about! 🤔

You say "immigration without integration is increasingly seen as one of the driving forces in this" - increasingly seen by who? By you? Something you saw on facebook?

I worked on community cohesion projects for several years. I live in one of the country's most diverse areas. I do see anti-social behaviour, but I'm talking from lived experience as well as professional experience here and I can tell you that class and deprivation are by far the biggest drivers of that anti-social behaviour. Posher ethnically diverse areas have extremely similar behaviours to posher white areas. Deprivation and hopelessness can leave people behind, whatever their skin colour.

Are you saying my kids should be proud that they were born? No they aren’t and why should they. I am quite proud of the generous, tolerant, funny and bright people they have turned out to be. What’s your point?

Hang on. Two things:

1. The actual OP doesn't not mention (or imply, AFAICS) the word 'white'.
2. Most of the immigrants in Wigan are white.

"I can tell you that class and deprivation are by far the biggest drivers of that anti-social behaviour. Posher ethnically diverse areas have extremely similar behaviours to posher white areas. Deprivation and hopelessness can leave people behind, whatever their skin colour."

This is exactly the point I try to make. I live in an area with high numbers of wealthy Muslims. They all integrate, have friends of all faiths and colours. Yet I keep hearing blanket statements that "Muslims don't integrate". The only times I see people of certain groups living in so called ghettos is when they're living in dire poverty. We have Muslims like that near us also in deprived areas, but also plenty of white British people living in their ghettos, not mixing with people from outside their groups. Poverty grinds you down.

Oh, that's good to hear there was quite a critical post about Leeds earlier in the thread.

I agree that asylum seekers being housed in substandard accommodation at vast expense sounds like an inefficient use of resources that needs looking at.

I always defend Leeds. It's a brilliant city. It's the second most diverse cit in the UK after London and this is its strength.

Yes I would like investment in palliative care. I am not sure I understand the direct link to asylum seekers though. All sorts of ‘taxpayers’ money’ is wasted.

@Feelingathomenow I understand that a considerable proportion, majority even, of that is going to the landlords/hotel owners. And the reason the asylum seekers are spending so long there is that we are not processing the claims. To turn that around we would need to take money off these property owners and/or increase public sector recruitment which it seems no government is or was prepared to do. So the money continues to spill out. But almost none of it onto the hands of who I think you were suggesting are creaming it off us.

It’s that old story isn’t it. The one about the man with 10 biscuits says to the man with one biscuit ‘look, that foreigner there is trying to steal your biscuit’.

If you can see the argument being laid out then why did you ask the question? Why ask questions you already know the answer to. I’ve lived in one of the “posher” areas affected by immigration and it went rapidly downhill. Lots more litter on the streets, closing down of long run family businesses, replaced by yet another sugar pub. Aggressive behaviour in what was once a lovely park (try young men driving round it at speed, within feet of young kids playing), anti social behaviour. Schools spending too much time dealing with kids who couldn’t speak English, not mixing with kids who weren’t from their ethnic group. Lack of respect for Remembrance Day parades disrupting them. Massive down turn in people turning up for community events. I too can speak from lived experience. It’s forcing people out of areas.

We need to spend the resources on the people suffering from poverty - don’t you think £5.6 BILLION plus time and energy otherwise used would help that?